Subject: AH challenge United Scandinavia Date: 10 Sep 2001 02:03:10 GMT From: masterd33@aol.com (MASTER D33) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if See if you can come up with a POD/ATL in which the countries of Scandinavia (Finland, Sweeden, Norway) are one country. This country must be a superpower with a republican goverment. Subject: Re: AH challenge United Scandinavia Date: 10 Sep 2001 02:44:04 -0700 From: jussi_jalonen@my-deja.com (Jussi Jalonen) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 masterd33@aol.com (MASTER D33) wrote in message news:<20010909220310.07493.00000740@mb-fj.aol.com>... > See if you can come up with a POD/ATL in which the countries of Scandinavia > (Finland, Sweden, Norway) are one country. This country must be a superpower > with a republican goverment. Reds win the Finnish Civil War in 1918 and export the revolution to Sweden and Norway. The subsequent Union of Scandinavian Socialist Republics participates in the WW2 on the Allied side and becomes a superpower, gaining a permanent seat in the UN Security Council. Having a long experience in necessary reforms, the Scandinavian nations succeed in keeping their form of socialism intact and by 2001, USSR continues to be a major player in the Global Politics. Cheers, Jalonen Subject: Re: AH challenge United Scandinavia Date: 10 Sep 2001 17:07:23 +0200 From: Thomas Martin Widmann Organization: Aarhus University Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 masterd33@aol.com (MASTER D33) writes: > See if you can come up with a POD/ATL in which the countries of > Scandinavia (Finland, Sweeden, Norway) are one country. This country > must be a superpower with a republican goverment. Impossible. The inhabitable areas of Finland, Sweden and Norway are not large enough to enable superpower status. So a Scandinavian superpower would probably have to include most of the lands around the Baltic Sea. Such a power is a possibility, and it has been discussed several time in this group before. (For at start, search in groups.google for "group:soc.history.what-if kalmar" [without the quotes].) Here's one I haven't seen before: In the years between 1947 and 1959, a Nordic (Scandinavian) common market was discussed. Around 1948/49, it was also discussed to form a Nordic military alliance. OTL, Norway and Denmark joined NATO instead, Sweden was neutral, and Finland was close to Russia. PoD: The Nordic military alliance is formed, officially neutral towards NATO and the communist countries. In 1951, a treaty to create a Nordic common market is signed. In the following years, a passport union, a currency union and a parliament are created. Great Britain and Ireland join the EEC as in OTL, but the Scandianavian countries stay out. Around 1985, Scandinavia is very close to being a single country. When communism falls around 1989 (it is for some reason not butterflied away), Scandinavia offers membership to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, and a free-trade agreement with Russia. Not a superpower, I agree, but still a power to be reckoned with. /Thomas -- Thomas Martin Widmann, Universitetsparken 8, 2., -333, DK-8000 Århus C Tel.: 7028 4406 * (park) 8942 7333 * (mob.) 2167 6127 * (SDS) 8733 4465 MA stud. (ling-dat); stud.prog.; aktiv radikal; formand/DK-TUG; T4ONF/TK Subject: Re: AH challenge United Scandinavia Date: 10 Sep 2001 15:34:08 GMT From: congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Well, my own Nordic Council is one of the three largest power blocs in Europe, and the most powerful neutral grouping on Earth. President Chester A. Arthur, the anti-Rutherford Hayes Subject: Re: AH challenge United Scandinavia Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:49:35 +0200 From: Vegard Valberg Organization: Nextra Public Access Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 "President Chester A. Arthur" wrote: > > Well, my own Nordic Council is one of the three largest power blocs in Europe, > and the most powerful neutral grouping on Earth. > > President Chester A. Arthur, the anti-Rutherford Hayes Yes, and given your world that seriously worries me ... --- -- - Vegard Valberg My e-mail adress is , that is two v's, not one W. Subject: Re: AH challenge United Scandinavia Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:41:10 GMT From: Jussi Jalonen Organization: http://www.newsranger.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 In article <3B9D275F.73B88AE8@online.no>, Vegard Valberg says... >Yes, and given your world that seriously worries me ... Just think of it: Martin Vadset commanding a helo attack against a peaceful Burmese farming community, with Grieg's "In the Hall of the Mountain King" playing in the background... Cheers, Jalonen Subject: Re: AH challenge United Scandinavia Date: 10 Sep 2001 17:14:00 -0700 From: bm2617@eve.albany.edu (Bruce Munro) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Thomas Martin Widmann wrote in message news: > > So a Scandinavian superpower would probably have to include most of > the lands around the Baltic Sea. Such a power is a possibility, and > it has been discussed several time in this group before. (For at > start, search in groups.google for "group:soc.history.what-if kalmar" > [without the quotes].) > > Here's one I haven't seen before: > > PoD: The Nordic military alliance is formed, officially neutral > towards NATO and the communist countries. > > In 1951, a treaty to create a Nordic common market is signed. > In the following years, a passport union, a currency union and a > parliament are created. > > > Around 1985, Scandinavia is very close to being a single country. > When communism falls around 1989 (it is for some reason not > butterflied away), Scandinavia offers membership to Estonia, Latvia > and Lithuania, and a free-trade agreement with Russia. > > Not a superpower, I agree, but still a power to be reckoned with. > > /Thomas Perhaps another way would be for Scandinavia to go into the colonization business rather than messing around in the Baltic and north Germany. With a Scandinavian-colonized Australia, Canada, S. Africa or perhaps Brazil the Scandinavian republic might have the manpower and resource base to move it up to at least marginal superpower status. South Africa...hmmm ... Scandinavian Drakas: they're cruel and ruthless, but the serfs have a great medical plan.. Or, there's the timeline where the Scandian Union (always a leader in the sciences) is the first to develop the nuclear bomb and uses it to put a stop to the war between the Austrian Hegemony and Greater France... some would say that makes them a superpower, if only for a few years... Bruce Munro Subject: Re: AH challenge United Scandinavia Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 06:49:23 GMT From: Mike Cleven Organization: Iron Mountain Creative Systems Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Bruce Munro wrote: > > Thomas Martin Widmann wrote in message news: > > > > So a Scandinavian superpower would probably have to include most of > > the lands around the Baltic Sea. Such a power is a possibility, and > > it has been discussed several time in this group before. (For at > > start, search in groups.google for "group:soc.history.what-if kalmar" > > [without the quotes].) > > > > Here's one I haven't seen before: > > > > > PoD: The Nordic military alliance is formed, officially neutral > > towards NATO and the communist countries. > > > > In 1951, a treaty to create a Nordic common market is signed. > > In the following years, a passport union, a currency union and a > > parliament are created. > > > > > > Around 1985, Scandinavia is very close to being a single country. > > When communism falls around 1989 (it is for some reason not > > butterflied away), Scandinavia offers membership to Estonia, Latvia > > and Lithuania, and a free-trade agreement with Russia. > > > > Not a superpower, I agree, but still a power to be reckoned with. > > > > /Thomas > > Perhaps another way would be for Scandinavia to go into the > colonization business rather than messing around in the Baltic and > north Germany. With a Scandinavian-colonized Australia, Canada, S. > Africa or perhaps Brazil the Scandinavian republic might have the > manpower and resource base to move it up to at least marginal > superpower status. OK; there's a few earlier PODs than the Union of Kalmar that could help this out. One is that the Kingdom of Norway (as proxy for the Kingdom of Denmark or whomever) enforces its claims in the New World in the wake of the discoveries of Cabot and Columbus; perhaps Henry Sinclair's voyages become the basis for colonization or at least political recognition for the North American spin-off dominions/commonwealths (which perhaps might be quasi-independent like Iceland was, whether titularly part of Denmark or not). As a result of these ties, Scandinavian influence in the Hanseatic League overwhelms the ostensibly "German" base of that organization, with Scando-Danish identity taking hold in Hamburg, Bremen and other OTL German ports, as well as in Friesland, which becomes a Dano-Norwegian Jarldom or some other fief. Scotland, or at least the Highlands, Hebrides, Orkneys and Shetlands, remains part of the Scandinavian realm as well. Come the Treaty of Westphalia, Denmark-Norway also secures its hold not just on Slesvig-Holstein but also on Lower Saxony and western Pomerania, and the King of Denmark's position as an Elector within the Empire remains unchallenged. Norway's claims in the Arctic remained potent in OTL even into the modern era of American-British/Canadian disputes over the Arctic archipelago, which as been discussed here before; instead of just Greenland, Baffin and Ellesmere Islands as well as potentially Labrador or at least northern Ungava ("Nouveau Quebec" in OTL; now the municipality of Nunavik, I believe) wind up on the map as legitimate possessions of Norway (or whoever owns Norway). How Sweden would fit into all this I'm not sure, except to propose that there's no reason for that realm to give up its imperialism in the Baltic; Swedish patronage of the Russian Grand Duchies underscore the Scandinavian foundations of the Russias, and not only Latvia-Estonia-Lithuania and Finland wind up in Scandinavian imperial control, but also Pomerania; perhaps even East Prussia just for the hell of it. > > South Africa...hmmm ... Scandinavian Drakas: they're cruel and > ruthless, but the serfs have a great medical plan. Swedish Brazil? Norwegian Argentina.... Now there's some interesting options..... > > Or, there's the timeline where the Scandian Union (always a leader in > the sciences) is the first to develop the nuclear bomb and uses it to > put a stop to the war between the Austrian Hegemony and Greater > France... some would say that makes them a superpower, if only for a > few years... It's the aerial drop of thousands of lemmings that proves to be the most effective weapon, with each one laden with potent cheese-destroying bacterial cultures........French camembert supplies are destroyed..... MC Subject: Re: AH challenge United Scandinavia/The dark side Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:24:05 +0200 From: "Søren Larsen" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 MASTER D33 skrev i en nyhedsmeddelelse:20010909220310.07493.00000740@mb-fj.aol.com... > See if you can come up with a POD/ATL in which the countries of Scandinavia > (Finland, Sweeden, Norway) are one country. This country must be a superpower > with a republican goverment. All the above challenges plus At the end of WW2 or short after, this country has nuclear capability.. The government is an unholy socialdemocrat/nationalist alliance directed at the SU The country was maybe neutral during WW2 or was maybe a cobelligerent with Germany against the SU but made a separate peace. During the end of WW2 the technical staff at Peenemunde fled the advancing Russians across the Baltic to Scandinavia where they were debriefed regarding delivery by rocket. In short; I want this country to be responsible for starting a nuclear WW3 before 1960. Cheers Soren Larsen Subject: Re: AH challenge United Scandinavia/The dark side Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:02:59 +0200 From: thorvald Organization: PowerTech, +47-2301-0000 Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1, 2 in article 9nj84g$7lj6d$1@ID-35736.news.dfncis.de, Søren Larsen at sohela@wanadoo.dk wrote on 10.09.01 22:24: > > MASTER D33 skrev i en > nyhedsmeddelelse:20010909220310.07493.00000740@mb-fj.aol.com... >> See if you can come up with a POD/ATL in which the countries of Scandinavia >> (Finland, Sweeden, Norway) are one country. > > In short; I want this country to be responsible for starting a > nuclear WW3 before 1960. Well, so much for the Nobel Peace Prize... - Thorvald Subject: Re: AH challenge United Scandinavia/The dark side Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 06:51:53 GMT From: Mike Cleven Organization: Iron Mountain Creative Systems Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1, 2 , 3 thorvald wrote: > > in article 9nj84g$7lj6d$1@ID-35736.news.dfncis.de, Søren Larsen at > sohela@wanadoo.dk wrote on 10.09.01 22:24: > > > > > MASTER D33 skrev i en > > nyhedsmeddelelse:20010909220310.07493.00000740@mb-fj.aol.com... > >> See if you can come up with a POD/ATL in which the countries of Scandinavia > >> (Finland, Sweeden, Norway) are one country. > > > > > In short; I want this country to be responsible for starting a > > nuclear WW3 before 1960. > > Well, so much for the Nobel Peace Prize... Instead of investing in the Peace Prize, Alfred Nobel hires Nikola Tesla away from George Westinghouse et al and brings him to United Scandinavia; part of his role is as a go-between with the Kingdom of Serbia-Yugoslavia but that's aside the point for now. Tesla develops weaponries even worse than the Nuclear Bomb, and which are deployed against the Austrian Hegemony in the late 1920s..... MC