Subject: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:08:10 -0600 From: Andrew Reeves Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if The genesis of this challenge lies in a conversation I had with one of my roommates a little while ago. It eventually reached the subject of Communism, and when I did mention things like gulags, it quickly degenerated into a collection of the following statements "Mao wasn't a true Communist..." "Pol Pot wasn't a true Communist..." "Stalin wasn't a true Communist..." And so on. The eventual question we have to ask is, "Well then, what is a true Communist state?" This, of course, is the challenge to the newsgroup. Create a world with a POD no earlier than the mid 19th century in which there is at least one True Communist state, i.e., and anarco-sydnicalist entity of which Noam Chomsky would approve. This state should be fairly libertarian in the civil sense, with businesses being worker-owned co-operatives. Everyone is provided for, and the state doesn't shoot its citizens, or even put them in concentration camps. Is this possible? Note to messrs. Bassior, Yoshida, Kolker, Donald et al. I really, really don't want a tirade about the evils of Communism. These are an established fact. What I'm looking for is an attempt to play around with history enough to produce something that is as close as possible to the idyllic world of the Nader-voting pot head. Andrew Who after this is swearing off of political posting Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:25:31 GMT From: "Robert J. Kolker" Organization: AT&T Worldnet Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Andrew Reeves wrote: > Is this possible? > > Note to messrs. Bassior, Yoshida, Kolker, Donald et al. I really, > really don't want a tirade about the evils of Communism. Forget about Evil. How about being out of synch with human nature. Any P.O.D. that anyone postulates to meet your conditions would produce a State that would last at most one generation and that is optimistic. You are asking for a P.O.D. in which ego is subordinated to the Greater Good. Dream on. If you want a P.O.D. go back about 2 million years and produce a less egotistical human that could survive long enough to reproduce his kind. How would such an Altruist fare against a standard Human Egoist? Bob Kolker We live for the One, we die for the One --- Ranger Oath from Babylon 5 Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:58:56 GMT From: Spiritualist Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <3A6726EA.2FA52BE9@usa.net>, "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: SNIP > Forget about Evil. How about being out of synch with human > nature. Any P.O.D. that anyone postulates to meet your > conditions would produce a State that would last at most > one generation and that is optimistic. I agreed with Kolker here, oddly enough. The proposed challenge asks for a TL in which there is a true Anarcho-Syndicalist (AKA True Communist) state. The fact that you will have non-AS nations will create problems. All of the world must be Anarcho-Syndicalist or this cannot work. Imagine a Spain that is Anarcho-Syndicalist after the Spanish Civil War. They are unable to create a strong national defense to protect themselves from an aggressive Germany, which will quickly develop a border with Spain. Why? Because the government is weak, allowing the worker unions to do everything. Imagine the Nazi War Machine flowing down France and then taking over Spain. Horrid. -- Spiritualist Alternative Zoology- http://members.nbci.com/agrarianist/index.htm Coming Soon- Shades of History. "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."- John Adams "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together"- James Madison Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:01:40 +0100 From: "Antonio González" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 "Andrew Reeves" escribió en el mensaje news:3A6722FA.A2927D02@mail.utexas.edu... > And so on. The eventual question we have to ask is, "Well then, what is > a true Communist state?" This, of course, is the challenge to the > newsgroup. Create a world with a POD no earlier than the mid 19th > century in which there is at least one True Communist state, i.e., and > anarco-sydnicalist entity of which Noam Chomsky would approve. This > state should be fairly libertarian in the civil sense, with businesses > being worker-owned co-operatives. Everyone is provided for, and the > state doesn't shoot its citizens, or even put them in concentration > camps. > I would start making the Republicans win the Spanish Civil War, then somehow freeing them of Stalin hands, and later dividing the Spanish Republic in several states (Basque Country, Catalonia,...). It's possible for Catalonia to become an anarchist state. In Andalusia the anarchists were strong too, but also the reaction forces, and after the war a lot of violence could be expected. Antonio Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:07:59 GMT From: Spiritualist Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <947aub$cpjhh$1@ID-39038.news.dfncis.de>, "Antonio González" wrote: > I would start making the Republicans win the Spanish > Civil War, then somehow freeing them of Stalin hands, > and later dividing the Spanish Republic in several > states (Basque Country, Catalonia,...). It's > possible for Catalonia to become an anarchist state. > In Andalusia the anarchists were strong too, > but also the reaction forces, and after the war > a lot of violence could be expected. The best POD might be one which prevents the rise of Hitler, or at least WWII. Perhaps a strong League of Nation, hopefully with America as a member. Although Italy will go Fascist, the rise of Hitler is prevented in Germany. Flash to Spain, and without Hitler and with a stronger League, there is less involvement of the foreign powers. This should help the Republic, no? This allows the Anarcho-Syndicalists to survive in Spain, there were really strong in the East IIRC. Eventually they take over the country through peaceful ways. You have Fascist Italy, Anarchist Spain, and Socialist France all living side by side. -- Spiritualist Alternative Zoology- http://members.nbci.com/agrarianist/index.htm Coming Soon- Shades of History. "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."- John Adams "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together"- James Madison Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:27:00 +1300 From: Gareth Wilson Organization: University of Canterbury Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Andrew Reeves wrote: > > And so on. The eventual question we have to ask is, "Well then, what is > a true Communist state?" This, of course, is the challenge to the > newsgroup. Create a world with a POD no earlier than the mid 19th > century in which there is at least one True Communist state, i.e., and > anarco-sydnicalist entity of which Noam Chomsky would approve. But that's not true Communism either :) Chomsky's not a Marxist. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gareth Wilson Christchurch New Zealand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:04:18 GMT From: dtenner@ameritech.net (David Tenner) Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Gareth Wilson wrote in <3A674384.87FC69D1@ext.canterbury.ac.nz>: >Andrew Reeves wrote: > >> >> And so on. The eventual question we have to ask is, "Well then, what is >> a true Communist state?" This, of course, is the challenge to the >> newsgroup. Create a world with a POD no earlier than the mid 19th >> century in which there is at least one True Communist state, i.e., and >> anarco-sydnicalist entity of which Noam Chomsky would approve. > >But that's not true Communism either :) Chomsky's not a Marxist. Marxists have never had a monopoly on the word "communism." Indeed, for a long time before 1917, they were far less likely to use the word than were anarchists. Nor did anarchists stop using the word after 1917. "Comunismo libertario" was the professed goal of the Spanish anarchists of the 1930's. See Gabriel Jackson's "The Living Experience of the Spanish Civil War Collectives" at http://www.ukans.edu/~iberia/ssphs/vol1no2.html -- David Tenner dtenner@ameritech.net Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:22:44 GMT From: Andy R Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 In article <3A6722FA.A2927D02@mail.utexas.edu>, Andrew Reeves wrote: > The genesis of this challenge lies in a conversation I had with one of > my roommates a little while ago. It eventually reached the subject of > Communism, and when I did mention things like gulags, it quickly > degenerated into a collection of the following statements > > "Mao wasn't a true Communist..." > "Pol Pot wasn't a true Communist..." > "Stalin wasn't a true Communist..." > > And so on. The eventual question we have to ask is, "Well then, what is > a true Communist state?" This, of course, is the challenge to the > newsgroup. Create a world with a POD no earlier than the mid 19th > century in which there is at least one True Communist state, i.e., and > anarco-sydnicalist entity of which Noam Chomsky would approve. This > state should be fairly libertarian in the civil sense, with businesses > being worker-owned co-operatives. Everyone is provided for, and the > state doesn't shoot its citizens, or even put them in concentration > camps. > > Is this possible? > > Note to messrs. Bassior, Yoshida, Kolker, Donald et al. I really, > really don't want a tirade about the evils of Communism. These are an > established fact. What I'm looking for is an attempt to play around > with history enough to produce something that is as close as possible to > the idyllic world of the Nader-voting pot head. > > Andrew > Who after this is swearing off of political posting I think the only way this could (and does) happen is here in the good old USA, where, under freedom of association, anyone who wants to start there own "commune" can gather with like-minded people, and pool their resources to assure the needs of all involved are met. On this scale, it's possible to create a sort of "mini-state" if you want to call it that. In fact it already exists in many areas. The extended family is one (how do first generation immigrants do so well - pooling family resources), some church groups (and cults), the Amish. This is all (except for some of the cults)"good communism" that doesn't subvert the family for the sake of the state, which becomes more necessary if imposed on a state level. Most importantly, it's not mandatory, and doesn't involve relinquishing private property involuntarily. I think that's as close as you'll get to 'true communism" without repression. Andy R Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:04:13 GMT From: Al Montestruc Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 In article <3A6722FA.A2927D02@mail.utexas.edu>, Andrew Reeves wrote: > The genesis of this challenge lies in a conversation I had with one of > my roommates a little while ago. It eventually reached the subject of > Communism, and when I did mention things like gulags, it quickly > degenerated into a collection of the following statements > > "Mao wasn't a true Communist..." > "Pol Pot wasn't a true Communist..." > "Stalin wasn't a true Communist..." > > And so on. The eventual question we have to ask is, "Well then, what is > a true Communist state?" This, of course, is the challenge to the > newsgroup. Create a world with a POD no earlier than the mid 19th > century in which there is at least one True Communist state, i.e., and > anarco-sydnicalist entity of which Noam Chomsky would approve. This > state should be fairly libertarian in the civil sense, with businesses > being worker-owned co-operatives. Everyone is provided for, and the > state doesn't shoot its citizens, or even put them in concentration > camps. > > Is this possible? Nope. Communism is based on false ideas about the nature of man. Because of that, it can never work. Communism is based upon an ideal of altruism, altruism works against the rational self-interest of the individual. As an evolutionary mechanism altruism is IMHO based only on emergency situations where humans are fighting to stay alive. In those situations risking ones own life to save a child or other human can be in the self-interest of human genes as a whole. But to base day to day life on such ideals is asking for trouble. The best way to make a system work that includes millions of intelligent self-aware self-interested "units" is to work out a system where the units are expected to act in there own short and long term self interest 99.9% of the time. Doing that allows evolution of the system as a whole by natural selection. Because communism does not reward success or punish failure very well it is a poor economic system. > > Note to messrs. Bassior, Yoshida, Kolker, Donald et al. I really, > really don't want a tirade about the evils of Communism. These are an > established fact. Yes they are, including what I wrote above, still many people suffer from a wish to believe in it. >What I'm looking for is an attempt to play around > with history enough to produce something that is as close as possible to > the idyllic world of the Nader-voting pot head. > > Andrew > Who after this is swearing off of political posting > > -- "If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws." EDWARD ABBEY - Environmentalist/Writer (1927-1989) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:21:25 GMT From: Spiritualist Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <947en5$l71$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Al Montestruc wrote: > Nope. Communism is based on false ideas about the nature of man. > Because of that, it can never work. Communism is based upon an ideal > of altruism, altruism works against the rational self-interest of the > individual. As an evolutionary mechanism altruism is IMHO based only > on emergency situations where humans are fighting to stay alive. In > those situations risking ones own life to save a child or other human > can be in the self-interest of human genes as a whole. But to base day > to day life on such ideals is asking for trouble. I agree, there are many problems with the argument of a True Communist, or Anarcho-Syndicalist country. People will care more about themselves over the good of the whole no matter what. The government is required to overcome this 'natural' view. For example, take the problem of pollution. In this Anarcho-Syndicalist country, the Trade Unions are in charge and there are no Government regulations. Being allowed to dump pollutants into the air or water, every factory will do so. Otherwise the competitors will have the lower cost and squeeze them out of business. The same thing with developing technology that has a high starting cost and a low starting profit. Take the space race, for example. Would an Anarcho-Syndicalist country be able to spend that time of money? No, because there is almost no government. And the Unions wouldn't see the long term profit in it. -- Spiritualist Alternative Zoology- http://members.nbci.com/agrarianist/index.htm Coming Soon- Shades of History. "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."- John Adams "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together"- James Madison Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:08:46 GMT From: Al Montestruc Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 In article <947moa$sv3$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Spiritualist wrote: > In article <947en5$l71$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Al Montestruc wrote: > > > Nope. Communism is based on false ideas about the nature of man. > > Because of that, it can never work. Communism is based upon an ideal > > of altruism, altruism works against the rational self-interest of the > > individual. As an evolutionary mechanism altruism is IMHO based only > > on emergency situations where humans are fighting to stay alive. In > > those situations risking ones own life to save a child or other human > > can be in the self-interest of human genes as a whole. But to base > day > > to day life on such ideals is asking for trouble. > > I agree, there are many problems with the argument of a True > Communist, or Anarcho-Syndicalist country. People will care more about > themselves over the good of the whole no matter what. The government is > required to overcome this 'natural' view. For example, take the problem > of pollution. In this Anarcho-Syndicalist country, the Trade Unions are > in charge and there are no Government regulations. Being allowed to > dump pollutants into the air or water, every factory will do so. Where in a "true" individual rights capitalist system the local property owners will take the factory to court and sue him for damage the value of their property raising his cost. In the USA the first attempt at that against a railroad was made by a farmer in the 1830's who sued the railroad for the damage to his cattle (stopped giving milk cause of the fright due to smoke & noise). The US Supreme set a VERY bad precedent in that they said in effect nothing should stand in the way of progress. Property right?? Anyway if one were using a proper capitalist legal system, the damage of pollution would be kept under control by lawsuits of property owners, not by government regualtion. > Otherwise the competitors will have the lower cost and squeeze them out > of business. If and only if they are allowed to pass on the cost of pollution to others by use of government force preventing property owners from collecting for damages. -------------snip--------------- -- "If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws." EDWARD ABBEY - Environmentalist/Writer (1927-1989) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:57:05 GMT From: nospam@jumpgate.net (mike ) Organization: JumpGate Networks - Mason City Iowa Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:08:10 -0600, Andrew Reeves wrote: >And so on. The eventual question we have to ask is, "Well then, what is >a true Communist state?" This, of course, is the challenge to the >newsgroup. Create a world with a POD no earlier than the mid 19th >century in which there is at least one True Communist state, i.e., and >anarco-sydnicalist entity of which Noam Chomsky would approve. This >state should be fairly libertarian in the civil sense, with businesses >being worker-owned co-operatives. Everyone is provided for, and the >state doesn't shoot its citizens, or even put them in concentration >camps. Nothern Italy before the Fascists takeover in the '20s. Benito is removed either by the favorite SHWI mthods of choking on a meal or being hit by a bus. The Blackshirts remain rudderless, and the Workers Soviets spread mostly peacefully across Italy. They don't have anything to do with Stalin and his goons. Italy is more productive and isn't as effected by the depression as others, gradually modernizing its industrial base, and crowd out the Nazis in Austria after stopping the attempt on Chancellor Dollfuss' life. Italy does no exporting of revolution, as they feel its counter productive afterseeing what happened in Hungary, until they can't stand whats happening on the western mediterranean....... The International Brigades flock to Italy for training to help in Spain. Fascists are crushed, and Stalin fumes because Italy is getting good press on liberating the country, while his offer for 'help' are ignored. Spain and Italy are now a powerful counterpart to Hitler, who was blocked from grabbing Austria and Czechoslovakia, with those two nation in Italys sphere of Influence, unable to add the Steyr and Skoda firms to fuel the Nazis war machine. Hitler chews the carpet in anger, as Germany not having those factories, is in no shape to grab Poland. WWII doesn't happen as we know it. ** mike ** Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:36:30 +1100 From: Sydney Webb Organization: Webb Family Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 mike wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:08:10 -0600, Andrew Reeves > wrote: > >And so on. The eventual question we have to ask is, "Well then, what is > >a true Communist state?" This, of course, is the challenge to the > >newsgroup. Create a world with a POD no earlier than the mid 19th > >century in which there is at least one True Communist state, i.e., and > >anarco-sydnicalist entity of which Noam Chomsky would approve. This > >state should be fairly libertarian in the civil sense, with businesses > >being worker-owned co-operatives. Everyone is provided for, and the > >state doesn't shoot its citizens, or even put them in concentration > >camps. My left-wing extremist friends, of whom I have none, tell me that what you're after here is actually 'true Marxism' and not 'true Communism'. Communists are apparently splitters who have perverted the true Marxist vision. Anyhoo, your description of libertarian anarcho-syndicalist polity that refrains from concentrating or shooting the citizenry seems a spot on match with the advertising pamphlets. > Nothern Italy before the Fascists takeover in the '20s. > > Benito is removed either by the favorite SHWI mthods of choking on a > meal or being hit by a bus. A surfeit of Ocio Ripieno alla Salsiccia seems the most merciful option. - Syd Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:02:50 GMT From: devite@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 In article <3A6834CE.6D5801E2@hotmail.com>, Sydney Webb wrote: > mike wrote: > > > > On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:08:10 -0600, Andrew Reeves > > wrote: > > >And so on. The eventual question we have to ask is, "Well then, what is > > >a true Communist state?" This, of course, is the challenge to the > > >newsgroup. Create a world with a POD no earlier than the mid 19th > > >century in which there is at least one True Communist state, i.e., and > > >anarco-sydnicalist entity of which Noam Chomsky would approve. This > > >state should be fairly libertarian in the civil sense, with businesses > > >being worker-owned co-operatives. Everyone is provided for, and the > > >state doesn't shoot its citizens, or even put them in concentration > > >camps. > > My left-wing extremist friends, of whom I have none, tell me that > what you're after here is actually 'true Marxism' and not 'true > Communism'. Communists are apparently splitters who have perverted the > true Marxist vision. Anyhoo, your description of libertarian > anarcho-syndicalist polity that refrains from concentrating or shooting > the citizenry seems a spot on match with the advertising pamphlets. > > > Nothern Italy before the Fascists takeover in the '20s. > > > > Benito is removed either by the favorite SHWI mthods of choking on a > > meal or being hit by a bus. > > A surfeit of Ocio Ripieno alla Salsiccia seems the most merciful > option. > > - Syd > Personally I prefer to have Benito have a good singing voice and become a successful tenor, thus going on a different career. (He would have made a great Opera singer) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:09:42 GMT From: chris__w@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 In article <3A6834CE.6D5801E2@hotmail.com>, Sydney Webb wrote: > My left-wing extremist friends, of whom I have none, tell me that > what you're after here is actually 'true Marxism' and not 'true > Communism'. Communists are apparently splitters who have perverted the > true Marxist vision. ? The communist vision pre-dates Marx, and was probably better expressed in any case by non-Marxists such as Kropotkin or Morris. It all depends on whether we're talking about *c*ommunism - probably a damn fine thing and certainly worth a try given how crap things are - or *C*ommunism - a giant pile of vicous statist Bolshevik arse. Oh, and Syd - you need watch out about getting political definitions from imaginary friends. Chris 'Nowhere's better than the present system' Williams Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:08:31 GMT From: bguerrero@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 > > Chris 'Nowhere's better than the present system' Williams > Glad to see you toeing the line, my man! Now, if we can just convince Phil Edwards.... Bernard "Running-Dog Capitalist-Roader" Guerrero Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: 19 Jan 2001 16:52:44 GMT From: coyu@aol.com (Coyu) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Bernard Guerrero wrote: >> Chris 'Nowhere's better than the present system' Williams >Glad to see you toeing the line, my man! Now, if we can just convince >Phil Edwards... I think he's toeing William Morris's line, actually. ObWI: Morris, after experiencing the glories of Icelandic culture, becomes an anarchocapitalist? Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 01:36:09 GMT From: chris__w@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <20010119115244.04839.00000126@ng-mp1.aol.com>, coyu@aol.com (Coyu) wrote: > Bernard Guerrero wrote: > > >> Chris 'Nowhere's better than the present system' Williams > > >Glad to see you toeing the line, my man! Now, if we can just convince > >Phil Edwards... > > I think he's toeing William Morris's line, actually. Bah! You try to be subtle, and there's some damn Yankee NY pinko hippie liberal trash sees through you. Is there no justice? Where's the smugness in that? Is there no way that we Anglosnobs can draw some sort of cultural International Midnight Line through the Atlantic? Hmmm.... Possibly the Eddie Grundy Fanclub? Chris 'put the rolodex down, Coyu' Williams Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:46:48 GMT From: bguerrero@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <20010119115244.04839.00000126@ng-mp1.aol.com>, coyu@aol.com (Coyu) wrote: > Bernard Guerrero wrote: > > >> Chris 'Nowhere's better than the present system' Williams > > >Glad to see you toeing the line, my man! Now, if we can just convince > >Phil Edwards... > > I think he's toeing William Morris's line, actually. > Ah, "News from Nowhere", I get it. I had figured it was just plain vanilla sarcasm.... > ObWI: Morris, after experiencing the glories of Icelandic culture, > becomes an anarchocapitalist? > > Well, you could probably transform the concept of medieval agrarianism into the concept of self-reliance. An English Thoreau? Civil disobedience in Trafalgar Square in 1887? Bernard Guerrero Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:08:26 GMT From: nospam@jumpgate.net (mike ) Organization: JumpGate Networks - Mason City Iowa Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:36:30 +1100, Sydney Webb wrote: >true Marxist vision. Anyhoo, your description of libertarian >anarcho-syndicalist polity that refrains from concentrating or shooting >the citizenry seems a spot on match with the advertising pamphlets. "New and Improved Communism! Now with 70% less terror!" "Make your Reds Redder with Italian Anarcho-Syndicalism!" ** mike ** Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:48:13 GMT From: Spiritualist Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <3a7f457b.239025361@news2.jumpgate.net>, nospam@jumpgate.net (mike ) wrote: SNIP > Spain and Italy are now a powerful counterpart to Hitler, who was > blocked from grabbing Austria and Czechoslovakia, with those two > nation in Italys sphere of Influence, unable to add the Steyr and > Skoda firms to fuel the Nazis war machine. > > Hitler chews the carpet in anger, as Germany not having those > factories, is in no shape to grab Poland. > > WWII doesn't happen as we know it. I like. Most things revolve around Spain or Italy. Any thoughts at, say, an Anarcho-Syndicalist Britain? -- Spiritualist Alternative Zoology- http://members.nbci.com/agrarianist/index.htm Coming Soon- Shades of History. "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."- John Adams "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together"- James Madison Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:55:01 GMT From: chris__w@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 In article <947oap$uin$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Spiritualist wrote: > In article <3a7f457b.239025361@news2.jumpgate.net>, > I like. Most things revolve around Spain or Italy. Any thoughts > at, say, an Anarcho-Syndicalist Britain? Historically, syndicalism has been (indeed, still is) a lot stronger in southern Europe than in the north. British syndicalism got its one and only chance at the mike in 1911/12. A POD to make it better? How about some really stupid semi-accidental massacre of striking dockers in 1912, which leads to a mass outbreak of sympathy strikes, condemned by the Labour MPs. Trouble is, WW1's about to knock the heart out of the second international. WI some 'damp squib' war in 1912 (Agadir?) leads to the most of the 2nd Ind clamouring patriotically to support it, then being left with seriously eggy faces when it becomes apparent it was just a great power screw-up. Meanwhile the syndicalists and the ILP (who'll be happy with the syndicalists, if not congruent) look a lot better. Chris 'History went wrong in 1914' Williams Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:36:46 +1100 From: Sydney Webb Organization: Webb Family Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Spiritualist wrote: > > In article <3a7f457b.239025361@news2.jumpgate.net>, > nospam@jumpgate.net (mike ) wrote: > > SNIP > > > Spain and Italy are now a powerful counterpart to Hitler, who was > > blocked from grabbing Austria and Czechoslovakia, with those two > > nation in Italys sphere of Influence, unable to add the Steyr and > > Skoda firms to fuel the Nazis war machine. > > > > Hitler chews the carpet in anger, as Germany not having those > > factories, is in no shape to grab Poland. > > > > WWII doesn't happen as we know it. > > I like. Most things revolve around Spain or Italy. Any thoughts > at, say, an Anarcho-Syndicalist Britain? Britain does seem the logical place for The Revolution. The famous English politeness should ensure that The Revolution is relatively bloodless. And the British love of queuing and the way they adapted to rationing during the Second World War suggests an aptitude for a marxist economy. Although if anyone could make anarcho-syndicalism work I suspect it would be the Germans. - Syd Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:05:14 GMT From: dtenner@ameritech.net (David Tenner) Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Andrew Reeves wrote in <3A6722FA.A2927D02@mail.utexas.edu>: >The genesis of this challenge lies in a conversation I had with one of >my roommates a little while ago. It eventually reached the subject of >Communism, and when I did mention things like gulags, it quickly >degenerated into a collection of the following statements > >"Mao wasn't a true Communist..." >"Pol Pot wasn't a true Communist..." >"Stalin wasn't a true Communist..." > >And so on. The eventual question we have to ask is, "Well then, what is >a true Communist state?" This, of course, is the challenge to the >newsgroup. Create a world with a POD no earlier than the mid 19th >century in which there is at least one True Communist state, i.e., and >anarco-sydnicalist entity of which Noam Chomsky would approve. Hmmm...Orlando Figes writes that the Bolsheviks in 1921 had to act fast to suppress the Kronstadt rebellion because "Revolts in other cities, such as Kazan and Nizhnyi Novgorod, were already being inspired by it. The ice- packed Gulf of Finland, moreover, was about to thaw, and this would make the fortress, with the whole of its fleet freed from the ice, virtually impregnable." (*A People's Tragedy*, p. 762) So maybe our PoD is the Gulf of Finland thawing a little early that year?... (The point is not that you could have a Libertarian Soviet Republic on one island, but that Kronstadt's holding out would inspire more of the peasant rebellions and urban strikes that were menacing the Bolshevik regime.) - David Tenner dtenner@ameritech.net "The victors are celebrating the anniversary of the Commune of 1871. Trotsky and Zinoviev denounce Thiers and Gallifet for the slaughter of the Paris rebels." --Alexander Berkman, diary, March 18, 1921 Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:07:00 GMT From: jackpoint@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 In article <3A6722FA.A2927D02@mail.utexas.edu>, Andrew Reeves wrote: > > Is this possible? > Much as it chagrins me, I'm with Kolker on this one--neither communism nor anarchism are feasible on the large scale. Now would be a good time, however, to point out the increasingly hoary observation that the modern US in many ways mirrors Marx's conception of the ideal state--worker control of capital (i.e. workers owning stock options to a great degree), and so forth. But as for true communism, in which private property does not exist-- that's ASB territory. Jack Point Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:14:29 GMT From: bguerrero@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 > Much as it chagrins me, I'm with Kolker on this one--neither communism > nor anarchism are feasible on the large scale. > Now would be a good time, however, to point out the increasingly hoary > observation that the modern US in many ways mirrors Marx's conception of > the ideal state--worker control of capital (i.e. workers owning stock > options to a great degree), and so forth. > But as for true communism, in which private property does not exist-- > that's ASB territory. > > Jack Point > Agree on all points, although the US technically has a ways to go on the distribution of equities/ownership count. The major divergence is that Marx' thoughts on the marginal cost of labor have been ditched (ie. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.") Bernard "Power to the People" Guerrero Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 01:13:27 GMT From: jackpoint@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 In article <947prr$5r$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, bguerrero@my-deja.com wrote: > > Agree on all points, although the US technically has a ways to go on > the distribution of equities/ownership count. The major divergence is > that Marx' thoughts on the marginal cost of labor have been ditched > (ie. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his > need.") > Well, that's because that particular idea of Marx was totally nutty IMHO. Jack Point Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: 19 Jan 2001 19:02:47 GMT From: jsbassior@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Andrew Reeves said: >Create a world with a POD no earlier than the mid 19th >century in which there is at least one True Communist state, i.e., and >anarco-sydnicalist entity of which Noam Chomsky would approve. This >state should be fairly libertarian in the civil sense, with businesses >being worker-owned co-operatives. Everyone is provided for, and the >state doesn't shoot its citizens, or even put them in concentration >camps. > >Is this possible? Maybe. What you need is some sort of charismatic religious movement which links this to morality such that: 1) The overwhelming majority believe in the _rightness_ of what they're doing and the _wrongness_ of private enterprise. 2) The society's leaders feel constrained by morality from mass murder or even unnecessary executions. Mind you, this is still going to be an economically _poor_ nation compared to the capitalist ones. That's unavoidable, due to the lack of a market to serve as a resource allocation device. It helps if the communist state is physically isolated enough that _most_ people don't see how much better everyone else is doing, yet doesn't actually close its borders, thus enabling the truly ambitious to leave rather than remain and become either apparatchiks or dissidents. -- Sincerely Yours, Jordan -- "To urge the preparation of defence is not to assert the imminence of war. On the contrary, if war were imminent, preparations for defense would be too late." (Churchill, 1934) -- Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:04:22 GMT From: bguerrero@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 > The major divergence is > > that Marx' thoughts on the marginal cost of labor have been ditched > > (ie. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his > > need.") > > > Well, that's because that particular idea of Marx was totally nutty > IMHO. > > Jack Point > Again, full agreement here. Marx implies that the marginal cost of labor is infinite. Bernard Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:47:27 GMT From: obscure1@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 In article <3A6722FA.A2927D02@mail.utexas.edu>, Andrew Reeves wrote: > And so on. The eventual question we have to ask is, "Well then, what is > a true Communist state?" This, of course, is the challenge to the > newsgroup. Create a world with a POD no earlier than the mid 19th > century in which there is at least one True Communist state, i.e., and > anarco-sydnicalist entity of which Noam Chomsky would approve. This > state should be fairly libertarian in the civil sense, with businesses > being worker-owned co-operatives. Everyone is provided for, and the > state doesn't shoot its citizens, or even put them in concentration > camps. > > Is this possible? Hmmmm. Not sure about post 1850, but around 850 I can come up with _something_..... Scott the Obscure Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 03:18:01 GMT From: ashish57@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 I think to have a successful communistic state you must have two things: 1) Small(er) land area and population. Like, between 50,000 and 75,000 people. The bigger the state is, the more bureaucracy, corruption, and other nice things of that sort are likely to occur. 2) Personal freedom. None of this 'toe the party line or go to the Gulag' type drivel will help. 3) A very strong cohesive force. Fundamentalism, a cult, extended family, culture. Something that will give people a very strong sense of nationalism. 4) SOME incentive to work hard may be required, depending on how strong number 3) is. Personally, I don't think you can get communism to work without devout religion. Others will probably disagree. -Ashish Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: True Communism Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:04:07 GMT From: nospam@jumpgate.net (mike ) Organization: JumpGate Networks - Mason City Iowa Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 03:18:01 GMT, ashish57@my-deja.com wrote: > >Personally, I don't think you can get communism to work without devout >religion. Others will probably disagree. communism can be a religion, like Lenins role like a Saints relics nothing like the zeal of a true believer ** mike ** Subject: Re: True Communism Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:41:18 GMT From: ashish57@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 I don't think you can get enough zeal for a straightforward theory like communism or nationalism. There's got to be a mystical or religious element involved. -Ashish Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/