Subject: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 23:43:52 +1000 From: Christopher Fardell Organization: University of New England, NSW, Australia Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if Ok For those of you who have read this book What sort of POD and TL for the Last Days and the collapse of Australia as described in this book From Chris http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~cfardell no AH there yet! Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 02:18:37 GMT From: aspqrz@pacific.net.au (Phillip McGregor) Organization: Pacific Internet (Australia) Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 On Sat, 26 May 2001 23:43:52 +1000, Christopher Fardell wrote: > >Ok For those of you who have read this book > >What sort of POD and TL for the Last Days and the collapse of Australia as >described in this book Having taught this at High School level, I am rather familiar with it. And, frankly, based on the information provided in the book, it completely fails to suspend my disbelief. Abysmally so. Sorry, short of a massive nuclear exchange or biowar plague or something similar you are simply NOT going to get the complete collapse of normal society (or what most of us like to think is normal, anyway :-) as depicted in the book. Yet there is *no* hint of a nuclear war ... or not one which directly effects Australia. And there is no hint of any biowarfare plague. Ben's parents flee Sydney *in a car* ... they obviously have relatively little difficulty in getting fuel, even. Even if, as hinted, fuel shipments from overseas stopped, for ghu's sake, we produce our *own* oil and have our *own* refineries. Prices would go up, and there would almost certainly be rationing, but so what? It would cause inconvenience, not the complete and total collapse of civilised society. Frankly, even if there had been some sort of nuclear war, it would not cause civilisation to collapse in Australia. Ditto some sort of biowar plague. Unless they actually *hit* Oz with multiple atomic weapons and said plagues. And these obviously do not exist in the book. We have coal, steel, and we have manufacturing industries ... sure, we're not going to be making Pentium Computer Chips (or whatever) any time soon, but we could easily maintain an mid-20th century level of technology even if the rest of the world pretty much disappeared. No. The book is a complete load of garbage on any level of reality and logic. It is, of course, not even science fiction. It is fantasy. And not even science fantasy. Outright fantasy. My personal opinion is that, whether Kelleher holds these views or not, the novel represents some stupid hug-a-tree pinko-greenie commie-liberal loony-left view of the way the world will go unless we get rid of all our nasty technology and kill 99% of the world's population off as well, going back to an "ecologically sustainable" (i.e. stone age "nasty, brutish, and short" lifestyile) way of life (and, just in case you think I'm a political troglodyte, I vote Australian Democrat, thank you very much :-). Even on that level it is a poorly written, simplistic, and fairly stupid diatribe. (And, no, I don't much like the book as SF [or anything else] ... as a book to teach 14-16 year olds who don't know any better, don't care, and who see *any* novel as a waste of space, well, it's better than some and a hell of a lot worse than others. I will grant it one thing, though, it has a firmer grip on reality than the truly *monumentally* stupid "Children of the Dust" or other books of that ilk. All written by technology hating ideologues, as far as I can tell.) Phil Author, Space Opera (FGU), Rigger Black Book (FASA), Armageddon (PGD). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 18:18:02 +0100 From: Alison Brooks Organization: Dis Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <3b106046.18027976@news.pacific.net.au>, Phillip McGregor writes (snip) But apart from that, what did you think of it? -- Alison Brooks http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:40:22 GMT From: aspqrz@pacific.net.au (Phillip McGregor) Organization: Pacific Internet (Australia) Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 On Sat, 26 May 2001 18:18:02 +0100, Alison Brooks wrote: >In article <3b106046.18027976@news.pacific.net.au>, Phillip McGregor > writes > >(snip) > >But apart from that, what did you think of it? Dind't you sort of get the idea that a) I didn't like the science and b) I thought it was mediocre at best otherwise? Just shows the crap you have to teach to support "local" literature in schools. I'm sure US and UK teachers could cite similar garbage they get stuck with teaching ... bnot because it's good, but because it's US or UK? Phil Author, Space Opera (FGU), Rigger Black Book (FASA), Armageddon (PGD). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:39:13 +0100 From: "Ed Thomas" Organization: Customer of PlusNet Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 > I will grant it one thing, > though, it has a firmer grip on reality than the truly *monumentally* > stupid "Children of the Dust" or other books of that ilk. All written > by technology hating ideologues, as far as I can tell.) 'Children of the Dust' was set about 3 miles from where I live: Not very pleasant when reading it as an impressionable 13-year old, I can tell you. Still, on re-reading it, I agree that it is crap. Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 10:54:02 -0400 From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Phillip McGregor wrote: > (and, just in case you think I'm a political troglodyte, I vote > Australian Democrat, thank you very much :-). This there an approximation to this in the U.S. political spectrum and if so, what is it? Bob Kolker Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:22:43 GMT From: aspqrz@pacific.net.au (Phillip McGregor) Organization: Pacific Internet (Australia) Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 On Sat, 26 May 2001 10:54:02 -0400, "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > >Phillip McGregor wrote: > >> (and, just in case you think I'm a political troglodyte, I vote >> Australian Democrat, thank you very much :-). > >This there an approximation to this in the U.S. political >spectrum and if so, what is it? Hmm. Well, theoretically, the Australian Labor Party (Socialist, but not in the accepted US meaning of the word where Socialist = Communist ... in the *accurate* meaning of the word, as, say in Eurosocialist) is on the Left Wing of Australian Politics (well, there's the Greens, theoretically further left, and the Trots and Maoists and other pseudo-socialist = communist groupings that don't really exist in the mainstream that are further to the left if, in some cases, they still exist now that communism has gone belly up or sold out). In fact the ALP was always slightly left of centre to well left of center. Then there is the Liberal Party, which is right of center. And the National Party (aka as the "Country Party" if you're old enough) which is sort of right of center and socialist at the same time (in the sense that they want a right wing social agenda, but plenty of government protection and intervention for farmers). The Democrats were, theoretically, in the centre. However, the rightward drift of politics worldwide now would have the ALP as a centre-right party, the Liberal Party as a far right party, the National Party as an increasing irrelevance (it hasn't changed, but still teams up with the Liberals, who really have no use for them any more). The Democrats are more or less centre left, where the ALP used to be. In American Terms? Well, in *australian* Terms, even your bleeding-heart-pinko-liberal Democratic Party would be further to the right than the Liberals. Clear as mud? Phil Author, Space Opera (FGU), Rigger Black Book (FASA), Armageddon (PGD). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: 26 May 2001 15:35:02 GMT From: trevor@REMOVETHISiinet.net.au (Trevor Calder) Organization: TINLC and I'm not unit #1927 Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Robert J. Kolker (bobkolker@mediaone.net) used message <3B0FC38A.22AEA3EC@mediaone.net> to spread these words: >Phillip McGregor wrote: >> (and, just in case you think I'm a political troglodyte, I vote >> Australian Democrat, thank you very much :-). >This there an approximation to this in the U.S. political >spectrum and if so, what is it? Rabid left-wing treehugger...... -- Trevor Calder "..it is foolishness and endless trouble to cast a stone at every dog that barks at you.." Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:24:17 GMT From: aspqrz@pacific.net.au (Phillip McGregor) Organization: Pacific Internet (Australia) Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 On 26 May 2001 15:35:02 GMT, trevor@REMOVETHISiinet.net.au (Trevor Calder) wrote: >Robert J. Kolker (bobkolker@mediaone.net) used message ><3B0FC38A.22AEA3EC@mediaone.net> to spread these words: > >>Phillip McGregor wrote: >>> (and, just in case you think I'm a political troglodyte, I vote >>> Australian Democrat, thank you very much :-). > >>This there an approximation to this in the U.S. political >>spectrum and if so, what is it? > >Rabid left-wing treehugger...... I resent that. I am *not* a treehugger. And Democrats are not *necessarily* treehuggers. That's the Greens. In fact, I don't believe in Global Warming (the science is, AFAICT, abysmally poor at best) and I do believe that technology is man's best hope for maintaining the environment. So there. Phil Author, Space Opera (FGU), Rigger Black Book (FASA), Armageddon (PGD). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 15:57:50 +1000 From: Sydney Webb Organization: Webb Family Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 Phillip McGregor wrote: > > On 26 May 2001 15:35:02 GMT, trevor@REMOVETHISiinet.net.au (Trevor > Calder) wrote: > > >Robert J. Kolker (bobkolker@mediaone.net) used message > ><3B0FC38A.22AEA3EC@mediaone.net> to spread these words: > > > >>Phillip McGregor wrote: > >>> (and, just in case you think I'm a political troglodyte, I vote > >>> Australian Democrat, thank you very much :-). > > > >>This there an approximation to this in the U.S. political > >>spectrum and if so, what is it? > > > >Rabid left-wing treehugger...... > > I resent that. I am *not* a treehugger. And Democrats are not > *necessarily* treehuggers. That's the Greens. > > In fact, I don't believe in Global Warming (the science is, AFAICT, > abysmally poor at best) and I do believe that technology is man's best > hope for maintaining the environment. > > So there. So noted. However, unless we can turn this into AH (WI Don Chipp takes Andrew Peacock with him? WI Natasha Stott-Despoja is as ugly as sin?) we are in danger of running into the BoP. - Syd Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: 27 May 2001 13:25:49 GMT From: trevor@REMOVETHISiinet.net.au (Trevor Calder) Organization: TINLC and I'm not unit #1927 Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 Phillip McGregor (aspqrz@pacific.net.au) used message <3b1537f3.6717015@news.pacific.net.au> to spread these words: >On 26 May 2001 15:35:02 GMT, trevor@REMOVETHISiinet.net.au (Trevor >Calder) wrote: >>Rabid left-wing treehugger...... >I resent that. I am *not* a treehugger. And Democrats are not >*necessarily* treehuggers. That's the Greens. Hairsplitter! It's all interchangeable Land Rights for Gay Whales with both those...a damn good flogging would see them all right though. Bring back National Service, I say - six months in the trenches would make men of 'em. >In fact, I don't believe in Global Warming (the science is, AFAICT, >abysmally poor at best) Well it isn't good, I'll let you have that much. >and I do believe that technology is man's best >hope for maintaining the environment. Only hope. -- Trevor Calder "..it is foolishness and endless trouble to cast a stone at every dog that barks at you.." Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 02:11:02 GMT From: aspqrz@pacific.net.au (Phillip McGregor) Organization: Pacific Internet (Australia) Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 On 27 May 2001 13:25:49 GMT, trevor@REMOVETHISiinet.net.au (Trevor Calder) wrote: >Phillip McGregor (aspqrz@pacific.net.au) used message ><3b1537f3.6717015@news.pacific.net.au> to spread these words: > >>On 26 May 2001 15:35:02 GMT, trevor@REMOVETHISiinet.net.au (Trevor >>Calder) wrote: > >>>Rabid left-wing treehugger...... > >>I resent that. I am *not* a treehugger. And Democrats are not >>*necessarily* treehuggers. That's the Greens. > >Hairsplitter! It's all interchangeable Land Rights for Gay Whales with >both those...a damn good flogging would see them all right though. >Bring back National Service, I say - six months in the trenches would >make men of 'em. Yeah, I'd have to agree with that ... I have some useless sobs in my Year 11 English class that would do very nicely as the first callup group :-) >>In fact, I don't believe in Global Warming (the science is, AFAICT, >>abysmally poor at best) > >Well it isn't good, I'll let you have that much. > >>and I do believe that technology is man's best >>hope for maintaining the environment. > >Only hope. Yeah, I could go with that. Phil Author, Space Opera (FGU), Rigger Black Book (FASA), Armageddon (PGD). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Taronga Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 12:36:36 +1000 From: "Paul Melville Austin" Organization: http://www.1050chum.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 whats wrong with being a treehugger? oh yes! we dont want "progress" without considering consequences!