Subject: AH Challenge: Rule Hibernia! Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:10:12 -0500 From: daniel patrick duffy Organization: private Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if Here's a tough challenge for them that's brave enough to try: find a way for Ireland to dominate the British Isles instead of England. Irish kings invade Britain, defeat the inhabitants an occupy the island, creating a United Kingdom with its capital at Dublin. Possible PODs: Brian Boru survives the Battle of Clontarf long enough (he was already old at the time of the battle) to cement the rule of his dynasty as High King of Ireland, creating a permanent central government for the otherwise disorganized Irish. A later marriage between the Irish and Scottish royal families creates a Celtic united kingdom large enough to take on the English. The Irish adopt the Welsh longbow, making it their favorite weapon, and using massed formations of bowmen in battle before Edward Longshanks gets the idea. Possible Consequences: An Irish "Henry VIII" splits from Rome during the Reformation, creating a Celtic Church in the same way that the Anglican Church was created in OTL. The Irish church is restored to its glory days before the Synod of Whitby. No 100-Years War, no Irish king could lay a claim to the crown of France or to any French territories. Possible Medieval discovery of North America as Irish boats and Irish missionaries (as did St. Brendan) make it to Newfoundland. Any thoughts or comments? Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Rule Hibernia! Date: 17 Feb 2001 04:50:00 GMT From: mathwft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) Organization: Department of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Canterbury, Christchurch, NewZealand Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 daniel patrick duffy , an oddly-named person to be writing about "Rule Hibernia", writes: |> creating a United Kingdom with its capital at Dublin. Eggshelly, I've always thought it'd be rather kool to have the capital on the Isle of Man! For one thing, it's named after an ancient British/Irish god, (and don't tell me the capital might therefore be in Manchester!) For another, it's almost equidistant to Ireland, Wales and Scotland, (and not much further to England either), so that'd make it *really* neutral-ish. And of course it's totally protected from upstart rebels in the various mainlands; and not a bad place to base a navy either. So all in all, I think it's the answer. If you get any good responses, can you massage them into a Man-based form for me please? As to your main enquiry, though, you'll just have to rely on the luck of the Irish! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Taylor W.Taylor@math.canterbury.ac.nz ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you had the luck of the Irish, you'd wish you were English instead! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- .. ...... ......... ......... . .......... .............. ............... ................. .................................... ...................................... ... .......................... ............ ........................... .....O....... ............................ ....BELFAST... ............................................. ..................................... .................................... ...................................... ................................... .......... ...................................... ..................................................... . .................................................... . .................................................... . ....................................................... ................................................. ..................................................O .............................................DUBLIN.. ........................................................ .......................................................... ......................................................... ......... .......................................... ............................................. .............................................. ............................................... .............................................. ............................................. ............................................... ................................................. .. ............................................... .......................................... ................................... ...................................... ........................................ ... ............................. ............................... ............................. ........................... .. .................. ... ............ ....... . . .. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Rule Hibernia! Date: 17 Feb 2001 04:59:56 GMT From: cassiusmaxim@aol.com (Emperor) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 I'm not sure, but isn't the total area of London bigger than the Isle of Man? Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Rule Hibernia! Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:03:35 -0000 From: "MikeF" Organization: ACS, The University of Nottingham Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 "Emperor" wrote in message news:20010216235956.02093.00000254@ng-bd1.aol.com... > > I'm not sure, but isn't the total area of London bigger than the Isle of Man? Well the Isle of Man is about 220 square miles - Greater London is bigger of course (656 square miles), but go back to, say, the 17th century and London probably wasn't bigger than about 10 square miles. But of course, this doesn't mention the area of arable land needed to support the city, and the necessity of good communications with the capital, etc. etc. Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Rule Hibernia! Date: 17 Feb 2001 18:58:43 GMT From: joatsimeon@aol.com (JoatSimeon) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 The overwhelming probability is that the British Isles will be dominated by the power that controls the largest area of arable land, with good communications a close second. (In preindustrial times, there was a close correlation between acres of grain and size of population.) This translates as "England". Of the three traditional units, England has by far the largest area of good grain-growing land, and also the best communications with the mainland, and the best internal communications -- all those navigable rivers. Oh, and it also has more in the way of easily accessible minerals. It's also a high probability that the capital will be located somewhere near London. That's in the middle of the most densely populated zone and on a long navigable river. Note that when a Welshman (Henry VII) and a Scot (James I) became King of England, they promptly moved to London... and their sons became English. Charles I hardly even visited Scotland and evidently despised the place. Same-same for Wales with Henry VIII. -- S.M. Stirling Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Rule Hibernia! Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 07:15:07 -0500 From: daniel patrick duffy Organization: private Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 JoatSimeon wrote: > > The overwhelming probability is that the British Isles will be dominated by the > power that controls the largest area of arable land, with good communications > a close second. > > (In preindustrial times, there was a close correlation between acres of grain > and size of population.) > > This translates as "England". Of the three traditional units, England has by > far the largest area of good grain-growing land, and also the best > communications with the mainland, and the best internal communications -- all > those navigable rivers. > > Oh, and it also has more in the way of easily accessible minerals. > > It's also a high probability that the capital will be located somewhere near > London. That's in the middle of the most densely populated zone and on a long > navigable river. > > Note that when a Welshman (Henry VII) and a Scot (James I) became King of > England, they promptly moved to London... and their sons became English. > Charles I hardly even visited Scotland and evidently despised the place. > Same-same for Wales with Henry VIII. > -- S.M. Stirling True up to a point. There are historical exceptions. For instance, based on the above argument it would have been inevitable that Egyptian population and grain would have made it the center of the Roman empire, with Alexandria as its capital. This was of course Cleopatra's dream, but purely political factors prevented this from happening. Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Rule Hibernia! Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:36:13 -0500 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 JoatSimeon wrote: > Note that when a Welshman (Henry VII) and a Scot (James I) became King of > England, they promptly moved to London... and their sons became English. > Charles I hardly even visited Scotland and evidently despised the place. > Same-same for Wales with Henry VIII. The most plausible way for 'Ireland' to dominate the British Isles is for the Irish to get their own man on the throne of England. Now the Tudors and the Stuarts didn't exactly help their homeland dominate the island, but I'm sure you could claim that by having a King of Irish decent on the throne is Ireland ruling the British Isles. Perhaps having the Irish Monarchs in England remember their homeland could help. Logan Ferree Spiritualist Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Rule Hibernia! Date: 18 Feb 2001 04:41:21 GMT From: joatsimeon@aol.com (JoatSimeon) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Logan Ferree > The most plausible way for 'Ireland' to dominate the British Isles is for them to get their own man on the throne of England. -- except that a couple of generations later at most, his descendants would be English. It's a "follow the money" sort of thing. If Henry V had succeeded in conquering France, 50 years later England would have been a French province -- the tail wagging the dog. -- S.M. Stirling Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Rule Hibernia! Date: 17 Feb 2001 14:04:02 GMT From: kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk Organization: CIX - Compulink Information eXchange Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 In article <3A8D18A4.F227B44E@fuse.net>, theduffys@fuse.net (daniel patrick duffy) wrote: > Brian Boru survives the Battle of Clontarf long enough (he was > already > old at the time of the battle) to cement the rule of his dynasty as > High King of Ireland, Doubtful, the Title of High King was never hereditary and Brian had a large number of rivals who would have been horrified by the idea. Also a High King's power varied greatly depending largely on what resources he could muster from his own lands and his personal influence. In most cases he was reduced to the position of arbitrator for disputes between the other kings. Brian might have managed it but I doubt this. Ken Young kenney@cix.co.uk Maternity is a matter of fact Paternity is a matter of opinion Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Rule Hibernia! Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:51:56 GMT From: "Adam Elliott" Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Moving the administrative capital to the Isle of Mann might help. I just don't know if it could be done, or if they would go for it. Mann is in the Irish sea and would be strategic to all the islands. Adam -- Meddle ye not in the affairs of wizzards or they will eat the monkey and weazle in a light cream sauce. "Logan Ferree" wrote in message news:3A8F270D.DB411F60@roanoke.infi.net... > JoatSimeon wrote: > > > Note that when a Welshman (Henry VII) and a Scot (James I) became King of > > England, they promptly moved to London... and their sons became English. > > Charles I hardly even visited Scotland and evidently despised the place. > > Same-same for Wales with Henry VIII. > > The most plausible way for 'Ireland' to dominate the British Isles is for the > Irish to get their own man on the throne of England. Now the Tudors and the > Stuarts didn't exactly help their homeland dominate the island, but I'm sure you > could claim that by having a King of Irish decent on the throne is Ireland ruling > the British Isles. Perhaps having the Irish Monarchs in England remember their > homeland could help. > > Logan Ferree > Spiritualist Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Rule Hibernia! Date: 20 Feb 2001 07:32:00 GMT From: joatsimeon@aol.com (JoatSimeon) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Again, follow the money. In preindustrial terms, look where most of the grain-bearing land is. In the British Isles, it's in England. So any Irish conquest would result in... ... the islands being ruled from London, under an English dynasty of remotely Irish origin. The Stuarts went from Scottish to English in a single generation. The Tudors ditto. It took the Norman kings a little longer, because they retained very large, very rich possessions on the Continent -- but the whole of Ireland isn't comparable to Normandy alone! And the Norman aristocracy were linguistically assimilated in about 70 years, after 1066; by then French remained a first language only in the royal court and the very top layer of the aristocracy. Even that died out by the 14th century -- roughly 200 years. And England, or most of it, is a natural unity in a way Ireland isn't. It centers on a few navigable rivers which drain the best land and which mostly face the Continent, aiding trade and the dissemination of new ideas and methods. So a British Isles in which Ireland is independent is possible; it's larger (in terms of habitable land) than Scotland or Ireland, large enough to fend off any but really determined attempts at conquest. But if the isles are unified, it's going to mean English domination. -- S.M. Stirling Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Rule Hibernia! Date: 20 Feb 2001 07:49:22 GMT From: jsbassior@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 S. M. Stirling said: >Again, follow the money. In preindustrial terms, look where most of the >grain-bearing land is. And, given that England was from at least the 16th century on also a major commercial nation, and that London is a great natural port ... -- Sincerely Yours, Jordan -- "To urge the preparation of defence is not to assert the imminence of war. On the contrary, if war were imminent, preparations for defense would be too late." (Churchill, 1934) --