Subject: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 20:33:20 GMT From: jonathan_edelstein@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if Just when I thought I'd seen all the resurgent crackpot nationalists of post-1989 Eastern Europe, I ran across the web site of the "Government in Exile of the Free City of Danzig:" http://www.net2000.com.au/customers/danzig/ To save you the trouble of reading the somewhat incoherent manifestos on this site, the position of its author is that the Treaty of Versailles created the Free City of Danzig in perpetuity and that it thus still exists as a legal entity. He professes to be both anti-Nazi and anti-Polish, although the latter sentiment is considerably more vehement than the former. The "Government in Exile" has apparently applied for United Nations membership and submitted two briefs to the ICJ seeking the restoration of Danzig's independence and sovereignty. Of course, this movement has about as much chance of succeeding as I do of having my apartment recognized as the capital of Sweden - but in a different world, Danzig nationalism might not be so farfetched. Therefore, your task: Create a POD that leads to the creation of a viable ationalist movement either for Danzig or for some other place where such a movement would seem totally implausible in OTL. There are two qualifications. First, the location in question must have existed as an independent or autonomous political entity for at least a brief period, although it need not have been recognized as such by the rest of the world (in other words, Fiume qualifies). Second, the location must have had a distinct cultural tradition at one point and/or been inhabited by people who self-identified as being from that location above all others. Thus, you could have Silesian nationalism, but the Manhattan Liberation Front is out. Beyond that, the requirements are minimal. The independence or autonomy of the location at issue could have occurred at any point since the beginning of time; any place that ever had its own ruler will do. The challenge isn't confined to Europe, so if you can come up with a POD that creates a powerful Hyderabad nationalist movement, then more power to you. The movement has to exist now and have a substantial following, but it need not have succeeded in creating an independent state. Finally, the POD can be any time during the twentieth century, so if you're using Danzig, then a POD that prevents deportation of Germans from Poland after WW2 might work. So can anybody come up with a POD that leads to a strong Norman or Burgundian nationalist movement at the turn of the 21st century? Something even more implausible? Jonathan I. Edelstein in Forest Hills, NY "Who is wise? He who learns from all." - Ben Zoma, Pirkei Avot 4:1 Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: AH Challenge: Glenn Danzig, Nation! Date: 15 Jan 2001 19:11:17 GMT From: coyu@aol.com (Coyu) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Jonathan Edelstein wrote: >Of course, this movement has about as much chance of succeeding as I do >of having my apartment recognized as the capital of Sweden - but in a >different world, Danzig nationalism might not be so farfetched. Is there any possible PoD that not only could result in Jonathan Edelstein's apartment being recognized as the capital of Sweden, but Glenn Danzig - metalhead, comics guy, and occasional songwriter for Johnny Cash - as an independent nation? Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 20:51:20 GMT From: ashish57@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 > Second, > the location must have had a distinct cultural tradition at one point > and/or been inhabited by people who self-identified as being from that > location above all others. Thus, you could have Silesian nationalism, > but the Manhattan Liberation Front is out. And why not? New Yorkers are certainly not like the rest of us Americans... > Beyond that, the requirements are minimal. The independence or > autonomy of the location at issue could have occurred at any point > since the beginning of time; any place that ever had its own ruler will > do. The challenge isn't confined to Europe, so if you can come up with > a POD that creates a powerful Hyderabad nationalist movement, then more > power to you. The movement has to exist now and have a substantial > following, but it need not have succeeded in creating an independent > state. Finally, the POD can be any time during the twentieth century, > so if you're using Danzig, then a POD that prevents deportation of > Germans from Poland after WW2 might work. > > So can anybody come up with a POD that leads to a strong Norman or > Burgundian nationalist movement at the turn of the 21st century? > Something even more implausible? You mean, something like that upstart Zionist movement overcoming the British Empire and Arab 'drive them into the sea' sentiment to create a modern state of Israel in the British Mandate after WWII? Not possible. Ashish Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 20:02:33 -0400 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 jonathan_edelstein@my-deja.com wrote: > > [deletia] > > There are two qualifications. First, the location in question must > have existed as an independent or autonomous political entity for at > least a brief period, although it need not have been recognized as such > by the rest of the world (in other words, Fiume qualifies). Or perhaps Trieste, or maybe Klaipeda/Memel. > [deletia] > > Beyond that, the requirements are minimal. The independence or > autonomy of the location at issue could have occurred at any point > since the beginning of time; any place that ever had its own ruler will > do. The challenge isn't confined to Europe, so if you can come up with > a POD that creates a powerful Hyderabad nationalist movement, then more > power to you. Actually, there _was_ a Hyderabad nationalist movement, as the Hindus and Muslims of Andhra Pradesh resisted their unification with the poorer areas in the east of Andrha Pradesh, outside of the historical boundaries of Hyderabad. The Library of Congress country study of India has more on this separatist movement -- they wanted to establish "Telangana" as a separate Indian state. > [deletia] > > Jonathan I. Edelstein in Forest Hills, NY > > "Who is wise? He who learns from all." > - Ben Zoma, Pirkei Avot 4:1 > > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/ _________________ Randy McDonald mcdonald@isn.net rmcdonald@upei.ca _________________ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: 15 Jan 2001 00:38:13 GMT From: johnnypez9@aol.com (Johnny Pez) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Jonathan I. Edelstein writes: >Create a POD that leads to the creation of a >viable ationalist movement either for Danzig or for some other place >where such a movement would seem totally implausible in OTL. The Ragusa Liberation Front After the German conquest of Yugoslavia in WWII, Mussolini decides for whatever bizarre reason to resurrect the medieval Republic of Ragusa. Italian troops occupy the Croatian city of Dubrovnik, eject the whole population, resettle it with Venetian colonists, and proclaim it as the independent Republic of Ragusa (an Italian protectorate, of course). The Italian colonists are expelled by Tito in 1945, but their descendants continue to claim citizenship in the Republic, and a small but extreme right-wing party in northern Italy demands the "restoration" of the Republic (as an Italian protectorate, of course). -- Johnny Pez Newport, Rhode Island January 2001 Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:44:37 +0100 From: "Dragan Antulov" Organization: Iskon Internet d.d. Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 "Johnny Pez" wrote in message news:20010114193813.12937.00001436@ng-bd1.aol.com... > Jonathan I. Edelstein writes: > >Create a POD that leads to the creation of a > >viable ationalist movement either for Danzig or for some other place > >where such a movement would seem totally implausible in OTL. > The Ragusa Liberation Front > After the German conquest of Yugoslavia in WWII, Mussolini decides for whatever > bizarre reason to resurrect the medieval Republic of Ragusa. Italian troops > occupy the Croatian city of Dubrovnik, eject the whole population, resettle it > with Venetian colonists, and proclaim it as the independent Republic of Ragusa > (an Italian protectorate, of course). > The Italian colonists are expelled by Tito in 1945, but their descendants > continue to claim citizenship in the Republic, and a small but extreme > right-wing party in northern Italy demands the "restoration" of the Republic > (as an Italian protectorate, of course). Ragusa is probably the last of Dalmatian city-states Mussolini is going to resurrect, since it always had clear Croatian (or Serb, if you are to believe Serbian historians) majority. However, in OTL there was some Italian guy which called himself "Mayor of Zara (Zadar) in exile". -- Dragan Antulov a.k.a. Drax Fido: 2:381/100 E-mail: dragan.antulov@st.tel.hr E-mail: dragan.antulov@altbbs.fido.hr E-mail: drax@purger.com Filmske recenzije na hrvatskom/Movie Reviews in Croatian http://film.purger.com Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 07:04:34 GMT From: nospam-alxander@pipeline.com (Alexander N. Bossy) Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:44:37 +0100, "Dragan Antulov" wrote: >Ragusa is probably the last of Dalmatian city-states Mussolini is going >to resurrect, since it always had clear Croatian (or Serb, if you are to >believe Serbian historians) majority. Wasn't Ragusa the first Christian city sacked by the Fourth Crusade for the Ventians? I thought that it was Orthodox. Have I misremembered? Alexander Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:07:52 +0100 From: "Dragan Antulov" Organization: Iskon Internet d.d. Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 "Alexander N. Bossy" wrote in message news:3a7fa0d0.1744680@news.pipeline.com... > On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:44:37 +0100, "Dragan Antulov" > wrote: > >Ragusa is probably the last of Dalmatian city-states Mussolini is going > >to resurrect, since it always had clear Croatian (or Serb, if you are to > >believe Serbian historians) majority. > Wasn't Ragusa the first Christian city sacked by the Fourth Crusade > for the Ventians? I thought that it was Orthodox. Have I > misremembered? No. Dubrovnik/Ragusa is in Southern Dalmatia. The town in question was Zadar/Zara in Northern Dalmatia. It had large Bogumil community... or at least that was the justification for the sack. Orthodox Christians came to Zadar hinterland few centuries later, fleeing from Ottomans. -- Dragan Antulov a.k.a. Drax Fido: 2:381/100 E-mail: dragan.antulov@st.tel.hr E-mail: dragan.antulov@altbbs.fido.hr E-mail: drax@purger.com Filmske recenzije na hrvatskom/Movie Reviews in Croatian http://film.purger.com Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 09:05:36 -0400 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 Alexander N. Bossy wrote: > > On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:44:37 +0100, "Dragan Antulov" > wrote: > > >Ragusa is probably the last of Dalmatian city-states Mussolini is going > >to resurrect, since it always had clear Croatian (or Serb, if you are to > >believe Serbian historians) majority. > > Wasn't Ragusa the first Christian city sacked by the Fourth Crusade > for the Ventians? I thought that it was Orthodox. Have I > misremembered? I'm pretty sure that it was Catholic, but that Ragusa/Dubrovnik had an Orthodox hinterland. > Alexander Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 19:04:37 +0100 From: Frank Novak Organization: Me, organized? Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 nospam-alxander@pipeline.com (Alexander N. Bossy) thought that the world (or at least soc.history.what-if) should know that: >Wasn't Ragusa the first Christian city sacked by the Fourth Crusade >for the Ventians? No, that was Zadar, a few kilometres up the coast. >I thought that it was Orthodox. Have I >misremembered? > Ragusa itself was Catholic. Frank Novak Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:26:18 +0100 From: "Dragan Antulov" Organization: Iskon Internet d.d. Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 "Frank Novak" wrote in message news:e4c08tgcguvidef1b9379e4borj7omdu63@4ax.com... > nospam-alxander@pipeline.com (Alexander N. Bossy) thought that the world > (or at least soc.history.what-if) should know that: > >Wasn't Ragusa the first Christian city sacked by the Fourth Crusade > >for the Ventians? > No, that was Zadar, a few kilometres up the coast. Few hundred kilometres, to be precise. > >I thought that it was Orthodox. Have I > >misremembered? > Ragusa itself was Catholic. Yes. But that doesn't prevent Serb historians from claiming that the population was and is ethnically Serb... Although the same line of reasoning applied universally might dramatically shrink the number of Serbs in the Balkans. -- Dragan Antulov a.k.a. Drax Fido: 2:381/100 E-mail: dragan.antulov@st.tel.hr E-mail: dragan.antulov@altbbs.fido.hr E-mail: drax@purger.com Filmske recenzije na hrvatskom/Movie Reviews in Croatian http://film.purger.com Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:24:47 -0800 From: robertaw@halcyon.com (Robert A. Woodward) Organization: Home User (I say that for all my software) Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 In article <93t2eh$tje$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, jonathan_edelstein@my-deja.com wrote: > Just when I thought I'd seen all the resurgent crackpot nationalists of > post-1989 Eastern Europe, I ran across the web site of the "Government > in Exile of the Free City of Danzig:" > > http://www.net2000.com.au/customers/danzig/ > > > There are two qualifications. First, the location in question must > have existed as an independent or autonomous political entity for at > least a brief period, although it need not have been recognized as such > by the rest of the world (in other words, Fiume qualifies). Second, > the location must have had a distinct cultural tradition at one point > and/or been inhabited by people who self-identified as being from that > location above all others. Thus, you could have Silesian nationalism, > but the Manhattan Liberation Front is out. > What about Brooklyn? (perhaps not independent of the State of New York, but certainly of the City of New York) -- rawoodward@aol.com robertaw@halcyon.com http://www.halcyon.com/robertaw/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:41:18 GMT From: Jussi Jalonen Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 In article <93t2eh$tje$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, jonathan_edelstein@my- deja.com wrote: > Just when I thought I'd seen all the resurgent crackpot nationalists > of post-1989 Eastern Europe, I ran across the web site of > the "Government in Exile of the Free City of Danzig:" You think that's borderline? I've seen a Manifesto by the Free Citizens of St. Petersburg, proclaiming all Russian federal branches of power as "anti-people occupation forces" and calling everyone to join forces in "committing acts of civil disobedience" against the invaders. "We fully realize that since the destruction of the Republic of Novgorod by Muscovite Tsarist autocracy, the historic Vod territory has never experienced true democracy... We will not tolerate the incapacity and the incompetence of the Federal Government any longer!" I must admit that I share many of their views (Hah! Big surprise!). At best this would require a multiple PoD from the spring-summer of 1919, where White Russians suddenly face reality and decide to recognize the independence of the new border states, Mannerheim wins the Finnish presidential election, Entente commits itself more to the Russian Civil War, Yudenich offensive is succesful, etc. White Russians would still have to end up whipped enough, so that the end result could be the Free City of St. Petersburg in the middle of Finnish-controlled Ingria, accompanied with an independent (liberal-democratic and Nordic- oriented) Republic of Novgorod as a buffer state between Greater Finland and the (authoritarian and conservative) White Russian Grand- Duchy of Muscovy. Any takers? Cheers, Jalonen -- Fennis mira feritas, foeda paupertas: non arma, non equi, non penates: victui herba, vestitui pelles, cubile humus. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:29:15 -0400 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Jussi Jalonen wrote: > > [deletia] > > [deletia of PODs for post-war Novgorod] > > White Russians would still > have to end up whipped enough, so that the end result could be the Free > City of St. Petersburg in the middle of Finnish-controlled Ingria, > accompanied with an independent (liberal-democratic and Nordic- > oriented) Republic of Novgorod as a buffer state between Greater > Finland and the (authoritarian and conservative) White Russian Grand- > Duchy of Muscovy. > > Any takers? Would even _that_ work out? I think that you might have to have some kind of limited Soviet victory inside Russia, and a Finnish-supported buffer state in northwestern Russia that happens to include Novgorod. Ithat the same dynamics for unification of the Russias would exist as for the unification of the Koreas and the Chinas. > Cheers, > Jalonen > > -- > Fennis mira feritas, foeda paupertas: > non arma, non equi, non penates: > victui herba, vestitui pelles, cubile humus. > > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/ _________________ Randy McDonald mcdonald@isn.net rmcdonald@upei.ca _________________ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:33:45 +0100 From: "Dragan Antulov" Organization: Iskon Internet d.d. Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 wrote in message news:93t2eh$tje$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > So can anybody come up with a POD that leads to a strong Norman or > Burgundian nationalist movement at the turn of the 21st century? > Something even more implausible? Well, I can see Free Territory of Trieste surviving till 1991 being driving force behind Istrian nationalism (and depriving Slovenia sea access). -- Dragan Antulov a.k.a. Drax Fido: 2:381/100 E-mail: dragan.antulov@st.tel.hr E-mail: dragan.antulov@altbbs.fido.hr E-mail: drax@purger.com Filmske recenzije na hrvatskom/Movie Reviews in Croatian http://film.purger.com Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: 23 Jan 2001 00:48:35 GMT From: "Scott Eiler" Organization: S.E.I.L.E.R. Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 "Dragan Antulov" wrote: > >> Jonathan I. Edelstein writes: > >> >Create a POD that leads to the creation of a >> >viable ationalist movement either for Danzig or for some other place >> >where such a movement would seem totally implausible in OTL. Would a nationalist movement for Vovjodina (sp?) in northern Yugoslavia be implausible in OTL? It seems they'd be at least as likely to want to secede as Kosovo was/is. *And* they're on the border with NATO (Hungary) now. I just re-read that last sentence. Sometimes I get the feeling the real world is elsewhere, and I'm in the ATL. ----- Scott Eiler ----- B{D> ----- http://www.eilertech.com ----- Submitted by pocket calculator. "Well, when we're born, at least we don't get coughed up from our mother's mouth!" "Coming out the other end, how is any better?" -- Wolf Read. Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:54:44 +0100 From: "Dragan Antulov" Organization: Iskon Internet d.d. Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 "Scott Eiler" wrote in message news:94ikd3$bj9$11@bob.news.rcn.net... > "Dragan Antulov" wrote: > Would a nationalist movement for Vovjodina (sp?) in northern Yugoslavia > be implausible in OTL? It seems they'd be at least as likely to want > to secede as Kosovo was/is. *And* they're on the border with NATO > (Hungary) now. One of the greatest ironies of former Yugoslavia is the fact that Vojvodina, which was 2nd most prosperous federal unit, which had the most liberal and free-thinking Party, best legal system, and, last but not least, best and most harmonious inter-ethnic relationships is not going to come out of this as independent state or at least republic in FRY. The reason why Vojvodina nationalism is unlikely is in the simple fact that Serbs have the relative majority in the area. The name "Vojvodina" comes from "Vojvodina Srpska" ("Serb Duchy") short-lived autonomous entity (1849-60) awarded to local Serbs from Habsburgs for their services in Hungarian Revolution of 1848-49. And the said majority increased due to refugees from Krajina and Bosnia - people not friendly to the idea of secession from Mother Serbia. Furthermore, if Serbia loses Vojvodina, partition between Croatia, Hungary and Rumania is more likely than independence. -- Dragan Antulov a.k.a. Drax Fido: 2:381/100 E-mail: dragan.antulov@st.tel.hr E-mail: dragan.antulov@altbbs.fido.hr E-mail: drax@purger.com Filmske recenzije na hrvatskom/Movie Reviews in Croatian http://film.purger.com Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:08:02 +1100 From: Sydney Webb Organization: Webb Family Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 Dragan Antulov wrote: > The reason why Vojvodina nationalism is unlikely is in the simple fact > that Serbs have the relative majority in the area. The name "Vojvodina" > comes from "Vojvodina Srpska" ("Serb Duchy") short-lived autonomous > entity (1849-60) awarded to local Serbs from Habsburgs for their > services in Hungarian Revolution of 1848-49. Is this name related to the word 'voivode', the traditional title of the dukes of Transylvania? - Syd Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 07:11:23 GMT From: nospam-alxander@pipeline.com (Alexander N. Bossy) Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:08:02 +1100, Sydney Webb wrote: Voivode is a Romanian word of Slavic origin. It is usually translated into English as Reigning Prince. So, yes, they are related. However, the title was far more frequently used in Moldavia and Wallachia, where the title was still used for several decades after Romanian unification. Vojvodina is only part of a larger, pre-WWI region which included Romanian Banat. It had a very mixed population, with no clear ethnic majority. After the war, Romania and Yugoslavia amicably divided it. The Yugoslavian portion bears the Serbo-Croatian name of Vojvodina, and the Romanian portion bares the Romanian name Banat. Both sections currently have significant Serbian, Romanian and Hungarian populations, with a Serb majority in Vojvodina, and a Romanian majority in the Banat. The word Banat means "the little principality". The area was called Banat in Romanian way before the mid-1800's, and it is my impression that the name dates from the Middle Ages. I'd assumed that it had remained a small independent principality after Serbia, Wallachia, Transylvania, Bulgaria and Moldavia had coalesced into significantly larger states, hence the name. Alexander Sydney Webb wrote: > Dragan Antulov wrote: > > > > > The reason why Vojvodina nationalism is unlikely is in the simple fact > > that Serbs have the relative majority in the area. The name "Vojvodina" > > comes from "Vojvodina Srpska" ("Serb Duchy") short-lived autonomous > > entity (1849-60) awarded to local Serbs from Habsburgs for their > > services in Hungarian Revolution of 1848-49. > > Is this name related to the word 'voivode', the traditional title of > the dukes of Transylvania? > > - Syd Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 19:09:30 +0100 From: "Dragan Antulov" Organization: Iskon Internet d.d. Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 "Sydney Webb" wrote in message news:3A77F212.6C564AD1@hotmail.com... > Dragan Antulov wrote: > > > The reason why Vojvodina nationalism is unlikely is in the simple fact > > that Serbs have the relative majority in the area. The name "Vojvodina" > > comes from "Vojvodina Srpska" ("Serb Duchy") short-lived autonomous > > entity (1849-60) awarded to local Serbs from Habsburgs for their > > services in Hungarian Revolution of 1848-49. > Is this name related to the word 'voivode', the traditional title of > the dukes of Transylvania? Yes. "Vojvoda" means "duke" in Serbo-Croatian, although it could also be used as archaic form of "general"/"field marshall", especially in Serbia. -- Dragan Antulov a.k.a. Drax Fido: 2:381/100 E-mail: dragan.antulov@st.tel.hr E-mail: dragan.antulov@altbbs.fido.hr E-mail: drax@purger.com Filmske recenzije na hrvatskom/Movie Reviews in Croatian http://film.purger.com Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Postwar Nationalism Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 23:01:33 GMT From: jonathan_edelstein@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 On 4 February 2001, "Dragan Antulov" wrote: [deletia] > Yes. "Vojvoda" means "duke" in Serbo-Croatian, although it could also > be used as archaic form of "general"/"field marshall", especially in > Serbia. IIRC this is what "duke" means as well. As I understand it, the title comes from the Latin "dux bellorum" or "war leader," which could probably be translated as "general" without too much of a stretch. Jonathan I. Edelstein in Forest Hills, NY "Who is wise? He who learns from all." - Ben Zoma, Pirkei Avot 4:1 Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/