Subject: Challenge: Keep Louisiana Spanish Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:53:32 -0500 From: Carlos Th Organization: - Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if With a POD after the French revolution, the challenge is to keep Louisiana under the Spanish crown, at least up to 1810. That means that Spain does not handle Lousiana back to France so France could sell it to the USA. Extra credits if you don't butterfly away Napoleonic troops invading Spain. What next? Lousiana becoming an independent country allong with Mexico and the South American nations by 1920? Joining Mexico perhaps? USA expantion blocked at the Mississippi? -- Carlos Th Subject: Re: Challenge: Keep Louisiana Spanish Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:46:45 -0400 From: Old Toby Organization: The University of Michigan Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Carlos Th wrote: > > With a POD after the French revolution, the challenge is to keep > Louisiana under the Spanish crown, at least up to 1810. That means that > Spain does not handle Lousiana back to France so France could sell it to > the USA. > > Extra credits if you don't butterfly away Napoleonic troops invading > Spain. > > What next? > > Lousiana becoming an independent country allong with Mexico and the > South American nations by 1920? Joining Mexico perhaps? > > USA expantion blocked at the Mississippi? More likely joining Florida in being siezed by the US. America was determined to get it's hands on the mouth of the Mississippi, and by hook or crook, they'd get it. Old Toby Least Known Dog on the Net Subject: Re: Challenge: Keep Louisiana Spanish Date: 27 Sep 2001 15:41:44 -0700 From: hay9000@hotmail.com (Hay) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Old Toby wrote in message news:<3BB25AD2.61293EF2@mindspring.com>... > Carlos Th wrote: > > > > With a POD after the French revolution, the challenge is to keep > > Louisiana under the Spanish crown, at least up to 1810. That means that > > Spain does not handle Lousiana back to France so France could sell it to > > the USA. > > > > Extra credits if you don't butterfly away Napoleonic troops invading > > Spain. > > > > What next? > > > > Lousiana becoming an independent country allong with Mexico and the > > South American nations by 1920? Joining Mexico perhaps? > > > > USA expantion blocked at the Mississippi? > > More likely joining Florida in being siezed by the US. > America was determined to get it's hands on the mouth > of the Mississippi, and by hook or crook, they'd get > it. > > Old Toby > Least Known Dog on the Net Let me see.. From what I've read, Louissianna at the time was garrisoned by spanish forces who BTW were not informed of the swicth until 1805? or anyways much later than all the secret arrangements. One possibility, The spanish garrison refuses to acknowledge the sale, not very likely, but one could see them making a fuzz/mess of it, delaying it until say 1808 (or forcing Nappy to seize spain earlier 1806-1807) and then all is chaos, England might not recognize the Sale, the Spanish in Loiussianna refuse to vacate, and you have an easier way for Loiussianna to either go independent or disregard the treaty and remain with mexico. Hay9000 ps. No way you'll keep the nothern part of the territory american free, as it's empty and being flooded by settlers, without a much earlier POD to increase the Spanish Population to the area. hay Subject: Re: Challenge: Keep Louisiana Spanish Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:44:04 -0500 From: "Carlos Th" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 "Hay wrote: > ps. No way you'll keep the nothern part of the > territory american free, as it's empty and being > flooded by settlers, without a much earlier > POD to increase the Spanish Population to the > area. I am not counting with keeping Louissiana completely Anglo-free. Just to delay as possible the political anexation of Louissiana to the USA, and as Spanish as possible. Was it possible to prevent Spanish transfering Louissiana to the French possible from the beginning? OTOH, I set the POD just after the French revolution. Would an increased migration beginning, say, 1790 from Spain, México and Cuba make any difference? Of course, we first need a POD causing this migration. -- Carlos Th Subject: Re: Challenge: Keep Louisiana Spanish Date: 26 Sep 2001 20:38:17 -0700 From: bm2617@eve.albany.edu (Bruce Munro) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Carlos Th wrote in message news:<3BB2242C.E356A7E@my-deja.com>... > With a POD after the French revolution, the challenge is to keep > Louisiana under the Spanish crown, at least up to 1810. That means that > Spain does not handle Lousiana back to France so France could sell it to > the USA. > > Extra credits if you don't butterfly away Napoleonic troops invading > Spain. > > What next? > > Lousiana becoming an independent country allong with Mexico and the > South American nations by 1920? Joining Mexico perhaps? > > USA expantion blocked at the Mississippi? > > -- Carlos Th Well, you could have the Spanish Monarchy do what the Portugese one did - flee to it's American colonies under the protection of the British fleet. The king sits out the war in Mexico city, making loud defiant noises, and when the Napoleonic forces begin to retreat, return, perhaps at the head of a colonial army. In the meantime, Louisiana remains under Mexican/Royal jurisdiction, and is not sold to the US. Keeping the US out later, however, is a whole other kettle of fish. Spanish occupation of Louisina outside of the Missisipi Delta consists basically of two French guys in a canoe, and American settlers are going to flow in like a plague of Locusts. I see Spain going to war with the US, and losing, by the 30's. Spain simply isn't up to keeping the US east of the Missisipi. On the other hand, the Spaniards may realize this, and sell Louisiana to the English - let THEM act as a buffer between the US and Mexico. Of course, this is assuming Spain still rules Mexico in the 30's. Given that royal authority was never interrupted in this TL, the locals will not adopt the forms of local selfgovernment the interregnum caused in OTL, and will likely continue to follow the Imperial line from Mexico City and then Madrid. Still, the example of the US, the further example of France, the flight of the Monarchy, and the letdown in Mexico when they go from being temporarily the center of the Empire to once again a mere colony will all have powerful reprecussions. Finally, the Spanish monarch at the time of the Mexican revolution was a twit. Mexico may well be in revolt against Spain before Spain has to make a decision about those Anglo squatters in Louisiana, and indeed the US may make common cause with the rebels: we, your fellow AMericans, will help you out in your time of need, as you struggle against, as we did, a tyrannical overseas Monarch. Oh, no need to thank us - we'll just take a little unnocupied Royal territory in compensation - say, Louisiana.. Whether this will slow, or maybe embarrass US expansionism enough to give Mexico a fighting chance to hold on to California and the SW is dificult to say. If the US doesn't get Louisiana until, say, 1830, it may be another generation before they start spilling out into Texas in large numbers. Oregon is probably British at this point, and the southwest looks like a howling desert - at least, until gold is found in California. Then everyone gets interested in northern Mexico... Bruce Munro Subject: Re: Challenge: Keep Louisiana Spanish Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:07:06 -0500 From: "Carlos Th" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 "Bruce Munro" escribió en el mensaje news:f7e2a102.0109261938.43cfaf64@posting.google.com... > Carlos Th wrote in message news:<3BB2242C.E356A7E@my-deja.com>... > > With a POD after the French revolution, the challenge is to keep > > Louisiana under the Spanish crown, at least up to 1810. That means that > > Spain does not handle Lousiana back to France so France could sell it to > > the USA. > > > > Extra credits if you don't butterfly away Napoleonic troops invading > > Spain. > > > > What next? > > > > Lousiana becoming an independent country allong with Mexico and the > > South American nations by 1920? Joining Mexico perhaps? > > > > USA expantion blocked at the Mississippi? > > > > -- Carlos Th > > > Well, you could have the Spanish Monarchy do what the Portugese one > did - flee to it's American colonies under the protection of the > British fleet. The king sits out the war in Mexico city, making loud > defiant noises, and when the Napoleonic forces begin to retreat, > return, perhaps at the head of a colonial army. In the meantime, > Louisiana remains under Mexican/Royal jurisdiction, and is not sold to > the US. > > Keeping the US out later, however, is a whole other kettle of fish. > Spanish occupation of Louisina outside of the Missisipi Delta consists > basically of two French guys in a canoe, and American settlers are > going to flow in like a plague of Locusts. I see Spain going to war > with the US, and losing, by the 30's. Spain simply isn't up to keeping > the US east of the Missisipi. On the other hand, the Spaniards may > realize this, and sell Louisiana to the English - let THEM act as a > buffer between the US and Mexico. > > Of course, this is assuming Spain still rules Mexico in the 30's. > Given that royal authority was never interrupted in this TL, the > locals will not adopt the forms of local selfgovernment the > interregnum caused in OTL, and will likely continue to follow the > Imperial line from Mexico City and then Madrid. Still, the example of > the US, the further example of France, the flight of the Monarchy, and > the letdown in Mexico when they go from being temporarily the center > of the Empire to once again a mere colony will all have powerful > reprecussions. Finally, the Spanish monarch at the time of the Mexican > revolution was a twit. Well. We could keep South America getting independent in this time, then when the Spanish king in New Spain (Mexico) goes back to Spain, some heir is left in New Spain and the crown is split. Mexico became independent much in the way Brazil was OTL. Let's say that Ferdinand comes back to Spain as a king, but Carlos María Isidro proclames himself Emperor of Mexico. Then you have still an important figure in Mexico, however I dubt as succesfull as Emperor Pedro in Brazil. Then I would see Mexico and Spain trying to decide who should conquer back those rebel provinces in South America. By 1830 we have the Empire of Mexico including Louisiana, Florida (?), Cuba and Puerto Rico. Independent republics in former Spanish South America. The Empire of Brazil. USA colonizing unpopulous areas in Lousiana, and British North America in the North. Louisiana is about to get the fate of Texas in OTL. -- Carlos Th Subject: Re: Challenge: Keep Louisiana Spanish Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:56:29 +0200 From: "Antonio González" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 "Bruce Munro" wrote in message news:f7e2a102.0109261938.43cfaf64@posting.google.com... > > Well, you could have the Spanish Monarchy do what the Portugese one > did - flee to it's American colonies under the protection of the > British fleet. The king sits out the war in Mexico city, making loud > defiant noises, and when the Napoleonic forces begin to retreat, > return, perhaps at the head of a colonial army. In the meantime, > Louisiana remains under Mexican/Royal jurisdiction, and is not sold to > the US. What king, Charles IV or Ferdinand VII? In 1808, both of them were kings. I suppose that if any flees to Mexico (although I assume that Lima would be the choice of the king) the other one, with the help of Napoleon, would claim the throne in Madrid. So, we would have father in Spain and son in America (or the other way around). That could lead to separate kingdoms (at least temporarily). An independent Mexico, with a Spanish king perhaps could manage to preserve Mexico and Louisiana. The other king (or Joseph Bonaparte, if the abdication happens) could claim that both Mexico and Louisiana were his colonies, but could not enforce it. If the US wanted to conquer Louisiana they only have to meddle in the dinastical mess and promising support or simply by use of the force, could have it. Antonio Subject: Re: Challenge: Keep Louisiana Spanish Date: 27 Sep 2001 15:49:34 -0700 From: hay9000@hotmail.com (Hay) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 "Antonio Gonz?ez" wrote in message news:<9oum34$f7fe8$1@ID-39038.news.dfncis.de>... > What king, Charles IV or Ferdinand VII? In 1808, both of them were > kings. I suppose that if any flees to Mexico (although I assume > that Lima would be the choice of the king) the other one, with > the help of Napoleon, would claim the throne in Madrid. So, > we would have father in Spain and son in America (or the other > way around). That could lead to separate kingdoms (at least > temporarily). An independent Mexico, with a Spanish king > perhaps could manage to preserve Mexico and Louisiana. > The other king (or Joseph Bonaparte, if the abdication > happens) could claim that both Mexico and Louisiana > were his colonies, but could not enforce it. If the US > wanted to conquer Louisiana they only have to meddle > in the dinastical mess and promising support or simply by > use of the force, could have it. > > Antonio If the loyalist Spanish refuse the sale, or make a fuss about it, it is possible that Britain might jump into the mess and precipitate the war of 1812? As to the King going anywhere but Mexico or Cuba, I would think it unlikely. By 1810 most countries in South america are in rebellion, even mexico has a failed one, and Peru might be considered threatened with revolts north and south of it. Cuba would be interesting, but Mexico (New Spain actually) would be the Best choice. an interesting fact from what little i've read, The mexicans at some future point try to unify the countries by asking for spain to send a prince over or something,but it come to naught. (can't remember but I believe sapin offered a Duke instead and the whole idea lost steam?) Hay9000