Subject: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: 11 Jul 2001 16:19:28 -0700 From: TakLoufer@aol.com (takloufer) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if What would be a good POD that would allow Japan to have colonies in Hawaii and on the West Coast of North America by the 18th century? Could this be done with a POD in the 1500's? What is the feasablilty of Japan becoming a reletivly major world power by the early 19th century? I don't know a whole lot about Japanese history, so I can't say what factors need to be addresed. How likley would have it have been for Japan to have been more expansionistic and become more technologically advanced(on par with Europe)? I don't know but anyway I think it would be interesting to have the US, Spain, UK, ect butt heads with Japan over the west coast. What do you think would happen if this were to happen? Lets assume that Japan has also become, reletivly "Europeanized" in military tactics and would be better able to hold there own against European and American powers. -any comments? -ur pal -tak L Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:10:21 -0400 From: "Eric Johnson" Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 This is actually a fairly possible AH. Had the Japanese NOT closed their islands off from the outside world, or had they been more interested in the lands outside of Nippon when the Jesuits arrived, this is an extremely foreseeable outcome. For example, had the Japanese traded with the Jesuits and gotten the shipbuilding and naval training they could have needed, Japan would have been the dominate Asian power by 1750, and colonized the west coast around the same time the Spanish colonies were getting rolling. Whether or not this could have been done peacefully, I doubt, as by the time the Japanese could arrive the Spanish would already be there, but in this case, you get another version of the Caribbean wars and piracy, only instead of Dutch and English privateers you have Shogunate forces. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Visit Haven! Online roleplaying at its best. telnet://kailie.havenmud.com:4000 Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:06:40 GMT From: BERNARDZ Reply-To: reply to BernardzMUSIC@iname.com [delete "MUSIC"] Organization: @Home Network Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <9ij13q$n7t$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>, havenduuk@mindspring.com says... > This is actually a fairly possible AH. Had the Japanese NOT closed their > islands off from the outside world, or had they been more interested in the > lands outside of Nippon when the Jesuits arrived, this is an extremely > foreseeable outcome. > > For example, had the Japanese traded with the Jesuits and gotten the > shipbuilding and naval training they could have needed, Japan would have > been the dominate Asian power by 1750, and colonized the west coast around > the same time the Spanish colonies were getting rolling. Whether or not > this could have been done peacefully, I doubt, as by the time the Japanese > could arrive the Spanish would already be there, but in this case, you get > another version of the Caribbean wars and piracy, only instead of Dutch and > English privateers you have Shogunate forces. The Japanese could also have gone South towards Australia or West towards India as well. As such we could have a Japanese 1) dominated India 2) Australia and South Pacific 3) America and West Pacific. There are quite a few possibilities here Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: 12 Jul 2001 14:49:54 -0700 From: m_s_alderman@email.msn.com (Alderman) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Two words: Shikaku Mon. Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:56:42 +0100 From: Tom Ferguson Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 in article 6f5702fb.0107121349.51098c7d@posting.google.com, Alderman at m_s_alderman@email.msn.com wrote on 12/7/01 22:49: > Two words: Shikaku Mon. One word: Ughh? Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 01:39:26 GMT From: craig_n@my-deja.com (Craig Neumeier) Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:56:42 +0100, Tom Ferguson wrote: >in article 6f5702fb.0107121349.51098c7d@posting.google.com, Alderman at >m_s_alderman@email.msn.com wrote on 12/7/01 22:49: > >> Two words: Shikaku Mon. > >One word: Ughh? Shikaku-mon is a timeline in the rpg supplement GURPS Alternate Earths. Oda Nobunaga survives, and Japan slowly converts to Christianity and doesn't turn away from the gun. This puts them on track to be a truly gargantuan empire by local present in 2015. That's not the only thing going on in the ATL -- it's a baroque timeline, one of the two in the book that should appeal to people who like things seriously different, if I do say so myself -- but it's the most visible. In Shikaku-mon, the Japanese don't actually own that much of North America, but it would be fairly easy to fix that. I've put a full-fledged Japanese North America into other timelines (not published), but they start *much* further back than the 1500s ... like the battle of Marathon. Japan strikes me as the sort of place that could have been really good at colonization if they'd started in the right context (Europe stamped flat, and China too powerful to be tempting). Craig Neumeier, LHN Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: 13 Jul 2001 05:02:15 -0700 From: m_s_alderman@email.msn.com (Alderman) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 > That's not the only thing going on in the ATL -- it's a baroque > timeline, one of the two in the book that should appeal to people who > like things seriously different, if I do say so myself -- but it's the > most visible. In Shikaku-mon, the Japanese don't actually own that much > of North America, but it would be fairly easy to fix that. It's a great TL, BTW. Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:53:33 +0200 From: "Jason Cosetta" Organization: Tiscali / Nacamar Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 Which ATL/ book are you talking about? Sounds interesting... Subject: GURPS AE III? (was Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America) Date: 13 Jul 2001 15:51:27 -0500 From: "D. Barrington" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 In soc.history.what-if Craig Neumeier wrote: : On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:56:42 +0100, Tom Ferguson : wrote: :>in article 6f5702fb.0107121349.51098c7d@posting.google.com, Alderman at :>m_s_alderman@email.msn.com wrote on 12/7/01 22:49: :> :>> Two words: Shikaku Mon. :> :>One word: Ughh? : Shikaku-mon is a timeline in the rpg supplement GURPS Alternate Earths. : [...] : I've put a full-fledged Japanese North America into other timelines (not : published), but they start *much* further back than the 1500s ... like : the battle of Marathon. Japan strikes me as the sort of place that : could have been really good at colonization if they'd started in the : right context (Europe stamped flat, and China too powerful to be : tempting). Is there any hope of a GURPS AE III? I don't play RPG's but bought both the other books because they're about the most interesting AH world-building exercises around. I suppose the RPG demand for another supplement book isn't really that high, as there's enough possibilities already to satisfy almost any GM. Also, given your methodology as described in the intros to the books, you've hit a lot of the bigger opportunities for plausible, analyzable changes. But it's still fun to consider other possibilities. Are you in a position to speculate about what you might do in another volume? For my part (and anything I put on a public newsgroup is fair game for anyone to do anything with), I think the most obvious PoD's you haven't done yet are Napoleon-wins and US/USSR-war-in-1962. You've mentioned Alexander-lives-and-goes-west, but _a priori_ that might not be too different from the Roma Aeterna and Ming worlds. Germany-wins-WWI you've done peripherally in Dixie, more or less. Turks-go-farther-in-Europe, e.g. winning Lepanto? Other ideas from the peanut gallery? Dave MB Subject: Re: GURPS AE III? (was Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:12:25 GMT From: craig_n@my-deja.com (Craig Neumeier) Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 On 13 Jul 2001 15:51:27 -0500, "D. Barrington" wrote: >Is there any hope of a GURPS AE III? I don't play RPG's but bought both >the other books because they're about the most interesting AH world-building >exercises around. That's *exactly* the reaction we were hoping for -- thank you! >I suppose the RPG demand for another supplement book isn't really that high, >as there's enough possibilities already to satisfy almost any GM. Also, >given your methodology as described in the intros to the books, you've hit >a lot of the bigger opportunities for plausible, analyzable changes. But >it's still fun to consider other possibilities. We haven't asked, but the odds have to be rated as poor. Unfortunately, while the first AE sold very well for a GURPS supplement (much better than SJGames expected, I bet), AE2 has not moved anywhere near as quickly. Given that, I certainly wouldn't contract for an AE3 if _I_ were SJGames. >Are you in a position to speculate about what you might do in another volume? > >For my part (and anything I put on a public newsgroup is fair game for anyone >to do anything with), I think the most obvious PoD's you haven't done yet >are Napoleon-wins and US/USSR-war-in-1962. You've mentioned >Alexander-lives-and-goes-west, but _a priori_ that might not be too different >from the Roma Aeterna and Ming worlds. Germany-wins-WWI you've done >peripherally in Dixie, more or less. Turks-go-farther-in-Europe, e.g. winning >Lepanto? Napoleonic victory is the only one that we would *have* to do, given that I can't think of a way to make JFK-lives even remotely interesting. Likewise the Cuban Missile Crisis is just a depressing post-holocaust scenario unless we could come up with an interesting twist. After that we'd probably get into GURPS tie-ins that we haven't used -- GURPS Steampunk has been pretty successful, for instance (and it deserves it -- although the worked examples are appropriately cavalier about plausibility as alternate histories), so we'd want to have one of those. If GURPS India ever gets printed, we'd have to do something with that. They're talking about a whole series on WWII, so if we could think up something sufficiently different there... And so on. Craig Neumeier, LHN Subject: Re: GURPS AE III? (was Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:52:42 +0100 From: Tom Ferguson Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 in article 3b520495.15288377@news.newsguy.com, Craig Neumeier at craig_n@my-deja.com wrote on 15/7/01 22:12: > On 13 Jul 2001 15:51:27 -0500, "D. Barrington" > wrote: > >> Is there any hope of a GURPS AE III? I don't play RPG's but bought both the >> other books because they're about the most interesting AH world-building >> exercises around. >> > That's *exactly* the reaction we were hoping for -- thank you! > >> I suppose the RPG demand for another supplement book isn't really that high, >> as there's enough possibilities already to satisfy almost any GM. Also, >> given your methodology as described in the intros to the books, you've hit a >> lot of the bigger opportunities for plausible, analyzable changes. But it's >> still fun to consider other possibilities. >> > We haven't asked, but the odds have to be rated as poor. > > Unfortunately, while the first AE sold very well for a GURPS supplement (much > better than SJGames expected, I bet), AE2 has not moved anywhere near as > quickly. Given that, I certainly wouldn't contract for an AE3 if _I_ were > SJGames. > I ordered both AE and AE2 after finding out about them in this group, they won't be delivered for a week or two but their sales have just gone up. :) Subject: Re: GURPS AE III? (was Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 22:17:00 GMT From: "Larry Bernard" Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 > > After that we'd probably get into GURPS tie-ins that we haven't used -- > GURPS Steampunk has been pretty successful, for instance (and it > deserves it -- although the worked examples are appropriately cavalier > about plausibility as alternate histories), so we'd want to have one of > those. If GURPS India ever gets printed, we'd have to do something with > that. They're talking about a whole series on WWII, so if we could think > up something sufficiently different there... And so on. Get The right's to Harry Turtledove's books? > > > Craig Neumeier, LHN Subject: Re: GURPS AE III? (was Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America) Date: 14 Jul 2001 06:09:43 -0700 From: cray74@hotmail.com (Mike Miller) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 "D. Barrington" wrote in message news:<3b4f513e_1@rcfnews.cs.umass.edu>... > Other ideas from the peanut gallery? Ask on rec.games.frp.gurps Though Steve Jackson Games is currently undergoing a downsizing, so new projects might be on hold a while. Mike Miller, MatE Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 03:10:11 GMT From: tom_swoboda@compuserve.com (T.J. Swoboda) Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 Tom Ferguson wrote: > > Two words: Shikaku Mon. > One word: Ughh? Go to http://www.warehouse23.com, and search for "GURPS Alternate Earths". It contains several AHs (as does its sequel), inlcuding Shikaku Mon. LOL, I clicked on Alderman's post right as I was thinking the exact same thing... --T.J. Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: 12 Jul 2001 16:43:22 -0700 From: joergradd@yahoo.de (Jörg Raddatz) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 BERNARDZ wrote in message news:... > In article <9ij13q$n7t$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>, > havenduuk@mindspring.com says... > > This is actually a fairly possible AH. Had the Japanese NOT closed their > > islands off from the outside world, or had they been more interested in the > > lands outside of Nippon when the Jesuits arrived, this is an extremely > > foreseeable outcome. > > > > For example, had the Japanese traded with the Jesuits and gotten the > > shipbuilding and naval training they could have needed, Japan would have > > been the dominate Asian power by 1750, and colonized the west coast around > > the same time the Spanish colonies were getting rolling. Whether or not > > this could have been done peacefully, I doubt, as by the time the Japanese > > could arrive the Spanish would already be there, but in this case, you get > > another version of the Caribbean wars and piracy, only instead of Dutch and > > English privateers you have Shogunate forces. > > The Japanese could also have gone South towards Australia or West > towards India as well. > > As such we could have a Japanese > 1) dominated India > 2) Australia and South Pacific > 3) America and West Pacific. > > There are quite a few possibilities here > I always liked the idea of some Japanes general (Hideyori Toyotomi after winning at Sekigahara?) conquering Korea, beating the Manchu in 1605 or 1606, conquering Mukden in 1625, his son becoming Chines Emperor in 1644, starting the Japanese dynasty. Of course, Japan doesn´t isolate self, and in China the Emperor is Emperor and the Tenno is ignored (ceremonially), while in Japan the Chines Emperor is just formally Shogun and Supreme Governor of the Western Continent,. so no avoidable troubles arise. This combined Japan-China expands to the South Pacific and Indochina, perhaps acquiring the Philippines and even Indonesia (a bit unlikely IMO). I always wanted to bring the TL to the point when the United American States start the Pacific War with an sneak attack on the Japanese-Hawaiian Harbour of the Pearls in 1941. Jörg Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 08:42:16 GMT From: BERNARDZ Reply-To: reply to BernardzMUSIC@iname.com [delete "MUSIC"] Organization: @Home Network Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 In article , joergradd@yahoo.de says... > BERNARDZ wrote in message news:... > > In article <9ij13q$n7t$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>, > > havenduuk@mindspring.com says... > > > This is actually a fairly possible AH. Had the Japanese NOT closed their > > > islands off from the outside world, or had they been more interested in the > > > lands outside of Nippon when the Jesuits arrived, this is an extremely > > > foreseeable outcome. > > > > > > For example, had the Japanese traded with the Jesuits and gotten the > > > shipbuilding and naval training they could have needed, Japan would have > > > been the dominate Asian power by 1750, and colonized the west coast around > > > the same time the Spanish colonies were getting rolling. Whether or not > > > this could have been done peacefully, I doubt, as by the time the Japanese > > > could arrive the Spanish would already be there, but in this case, you get > > > another version of the Caribbean wars and piracy, only instead of Dutch and > > > English privateers you have Shogunate forces. > > > > The Japanese could also have gone South towards Australia or West > > towards India as well. > > > > As such we could have a Japanese > > 1) dominated India > > 2) Australia and South Pacific > > 3) America and West Pacific. > > > > There are quite a few possibilities here > > > > I always liked the idea of some Japanes general (Hideyori Toyotomi > after winning at Sekigahara?) conquering Korea, beating the Manchu in > 1605 or 1606, conquering Mukden in 1625, his son becoming Chines > Emperor in 1644, starting the Japanese dynasty. Of course, Japan > doesn´t isolate self, and in China the Emperor is Emperor and the > Tenno is ignored (ceremonially), while in Japan the Chines Emperor is > just formally Shogun and Supreme Governor of the Western Continent,. > so no avoidable troubles arise. > This combined Japan-China expands to the South Pacific and Indochina, > perhaps acquiring the Philippines and even Indonesia (a bit unlikely > IMO). I always wanted to bring the TL to the point when the United > American States start the Pacific War with an sneak attack on the > Japanese-Hawaiian Harbour of the Pearls in 1941. The main reason that Japan lost in Korea was the lack of adequate navy. Changing a few points and its quite possible that something like this could have happened. If Japan does merge with China as you suggest then it would be at the time the merger of the two greatest powers in the world. Once Japanese leaderships its quite possible that they could in time have dominated the world. > > Jörg Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: 12 Jul 2001 16:47:20 -0700 From: antigonos_jb@hotmail.com (diadoch) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 TakLoufer@aol.com (takloufer) wrote in message news:... > What would be a good POD that would allow Japan to have colonies in > Hawaii and on the West Coast of North America by the 18th century? > Could this be done with a POD in the 1500's? What is the feasablilty > of Japan becoming a reletivly major world power by the early 19th > century? I don't know a whole lot about Japanese history, so I can't > say what factors need to be addresed. How likley would have it have > been for Japan to have been more expansionistic and become more > technologically advanced(on par with Europe)? I don't know but anyway > I think it would be interesting to have the US, Spain, UK, ect butt > heads with Japan over the west coast. The Pacific is a big, big place. A Japanese California is a bit too much to ask. However, an English California (Drake) and a Japanese Oregon might be slightly more feasible. An expansionist Japan will head south towards the Philipines and East Indies. Remember when France opted for Guadalupe instead of Canada. Spice is where the money is and spice is where the bible thumping, musket toting samurai will be. Just think of it, a 17th century east Asian co-prosperity sphere. Maximum extent of the Japanese empire: Kamchatka, Sakhalin, Korea, Vladivostock-area, Alaska, Oregon, Philipines, Taiwan, Hainan, Malaysia, New Guinea, parts of Polynesia, and Northern Australia. diadoch Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: 15 Jul 2001 10:28:00 -0700 From: raharris1973@my-deja.com (Rob) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 antigonos_jb@hotmail.com (diadoch) wrote in message news:<50ff6b66.0107121547.37169f5a@posting.google.com>... > TakLoufer@aol.com (takloufer) wrote in message news:... > > What would be a good POD that would allow Japan to have colonies in > > Hawaii and on the West Coast of North America by the 18th century? > > Could this be done with a POD in the 1500's? What is the feasablilty > > of Japan becoming a reletivly major world power by the early 19th > > century? I don't know a whole lot about Japanese history, so I can't > > say what factors need to be addresed. How likley would have it have > > been for Japan to have been more expansionistic and become more > > technologically advanced(on par with Europe)? I don't know but anyway > > I think it would be interesting to have the US, Spain, UK, ect butt > > heads with Japan over the west coast. > > The Pacific is a big, big place. A Japanese California is a bit too > much to ask. Not really. However, an English California (Drake) and a Japanese > Oregon might be slightly more feasible. An expansionist Japan will > head south towards the Philipines and East Indies. Remember when > France opted for Guadalupe instead of Canada. Spice is where the > money is and spice is where the bible thumping, musket toting samurai > will be. Yes, its the prime area, but, if the Japanese develop a taste for furs and timber and Pacific salmon, the whole northern coastal regions of Siberia and North America become interesting to them. I don't see the Japanese beating the Spanish to San Diego, but I do see the potential for them to get settled in San Francisco first. Also, even if they are just in the Pacific Northwest first, they have the potential to get more of California if they have giid allies in a fight against Spain. > > Just think of it, a 17th century east Asian co-prosperity sphere. > Maximum extent of the Japanese empire: Kamchatka, Sakhalin, Korea, > Vladivostock-area, Alaska, Oregon, Philipines, Taiwan, Hainan, > Malaysia, New Guinea, parts of Polynesia, and Northern Australia. > > diadoch Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:57:28 GMT From: seiler@ma.ultranet.com (Scott Eiler) Organization: Eiler Technical Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 In article <990316a2.0107150927.6ba0795b@posting.google.com>, the robotic servitors of raharris1973@my-deja.com (Rob) rose up with the following chant: >antigonos_jb@hotmail.com (diadoch) wrote in message > news:<50ff6b66.0107121547.37169f5a@posting.google.com>... > >> An expansionist Japan will >> head south towards the Philipines and East Indies. Remember when >> France opted for Guadalupe instead of Canada. Spice is where the >> money is and spice is where the bible thumping, musket toting samurai >> will be. > >Yes, its the prime area, but, if the Japanese develop a taste for furs >and timber and Pacific salmon, the whole northern coastal regions of >Siberia and North America become interesting to them. I'm glad someone mentioned Siberia and Russian America, which the Japanese would have had to get past. They would probably have been able to bump the Russians away. The Chinese did around then, after all. But still, the Russians would remember. Look for some serious Russo-Japanese wars in the 1800s. -------- Scott Eiler B{D> -------- http://www.eilertech.com Even Doctor Doom is aware of the awesome power that only milk commands! It's bursting with nine essential nutrients. And drinking milk every day helps offer the calcium a human will need! So drink milk - by Doom's command! -- Doctor Doom (scripter unknown, working for the National Fluid Milk Processor Promotion Board). Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Japanese America Date: 21 Jul 2001 02:14:06 -0700 From: whiterose_y@yahoo.com (Carol Mitchell) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 This thread reminds me of a book that was published 30-odd years ago. It was about a timeline in which China raided the Western U.S. and captured slaves. The focus was on a abolitionist movement based on non-violence(sound familiar?), which was set in the present, but the historical background was given. I know the word white was in the title but can't remember the rest. It was promoted as a mainstream novel, not as fantasy.