Subject: AH Challenge: Into the Labyrinth (and Back Again) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:49:03 GMT From: sarcastic_jew@yahoo.com (Ivan Hodes) Organization: AT&T Worldnet Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if So it's like this: with a POD no earlier than January 1, 1900, you have to create an ATL where the alt-world of the year of grace 1950 is as totally divergent from OTL as possible. China would have to be some other color than Red, for example; Eastern Europe can't be under the Soviet yoke; Japan can't be under US occupation, and so forth. ASB-type PODs aren't cricket; but Astonishing Natural Disasters a la the unlamented S.M. Stirling are fair game. Easy enough, you say; batter the whole planet with enough asteroids and there won't *be* conquered peoples for Stalin to push around, nor will there be Stalin, nor, really, Europe in any real sense. But here's the twist. The ATL then has to continue, with all due plausibility, so that by January 1, 2001, it's as *convergent* as possible with OTL. Japan's an electronics-manufacturing giant; China is under the curious rule of a group of men calling themselves the Chinese Communist Party; Europe is slouching towards union, etc. etc. I'm far too busy, by which I mean lazy, to go about this in a detailed way, but my instinct is that the POD would have to involve the First World War. It would probably have to manage to both scotch the Allies and abort the Russian Revolution (Bolshevik variety), but I think just doing for the Reds might be enough. Without the Red menace, Hitler isn't around; but that's not to say that Germany won't go on another war of conquest. But it might wait longer; possibly until the mid-40s, say, and if there's still a world war raging by 1950, and no one like Stalin or Mao troubling the world, that'd be a pretty different place. Germany will be defeated, then rebuilt (because it's the sporting thing to do, after all); given its natural advantages of size and whatnot, it may come to economically dominate a peaceful Europe by alt-2000, as OTL. The real trick is getting communists in China; in an initially commie-free world, this could involve the US backing leftists in China to face fascist Japan. Or not. I bet you could do better. Ivan Hodes Oh, he who'd make his fellow creatures wise Should always gild the philosophic pill W.S. Gilbert, "The Yeomen of the Guard" Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Into the Labyrinth (and Back Again) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:29:15 +1000 From: Sydney Webb Organization: Webb Family Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Ivan Hodes wrote: > > So it's like this: with a POD no earlier than January 1, 1900, you > have to create an ATL where the alt-world of the year of grace 1950 is > as totally divergent from OTL as possible. China would have to be > some other color than Red, for example; Eastern Europe can't be under > the Soviet yoke; Japan can't be under US occupation, and so forth. > ASB-type PODs aren't cricket; Is Cricket cricket? Alert readers will have already guessed I'm referring to the dissolution of the Australasian Cricket Council on January 2 1900.[1] In OTL this is taken as a symptom of the lack of place for New Zealand in the planned Australasian Federation. New Zealand, blessed with a relatively large, intelligent and brave population would naturally have dominated the Federation. (I'd suggest that it was the national inadequacy of Australians, their 'cutting down tall poppies' syndrome that kept the Kiwis out but there's that BoP.) As Ivan correctly notes elsewhere in his original post, the international effects of this PoD would be felt in WWI. Australian soldiers, with NZ generalship, seize far more German colonial territory than OTL. This is just a prelude to the stunning Australasian Army Corps capture of Constantinople in May 1915. With wool, mutton and butter being shipped into Odessa shortly thereafter the collapse of Austro-Hungaria is just a matter of months away. Germany soon sues for peace and the Entente powers are victorious. Amongst the victors are the Japanese who are very intrigued by the Australasian 'shock' tactics and ask their British allies if they could receive AAC instructors to train and restructure the Imperial Japanese Army. The request is, of course, granted. The Diggers' attitude of 'no bullshit' is, amusingly, translated into Japanese as 'no Bushido' (and why not?) with some ripple effects in the 1930s. > But here's the twist. The ATL then has to continue, with all due > plausibility, so that by January 1, 2001, it's as *convergent* as > possible with OTL. Japan's an electronics-manufacturing giant; China > is under the curious rule of a group of men calling themselves the > Chinese Communist Party; Europe is slouching towards union, etc. etc. Unfortunately in the 1950s Australasia has another export for the world. 'Democratic Socialism'. Certain backwards countries, like Russia and China, without a history of democracy have a less than perfect implementation of the concept. It is a common joke that the Democratic Socialist Union of the Russias is neither democratic, socialist, united nor majority Russian. By January 1 2001 the DSUR is no more and the successor states have largely abandoned any attempt at 'democratic socialism'. Democratic Socialist China retains the title but is as much a free-market oligarchy as neighboring Manchuko. Japan is increasingly building electronics plants in DSC in order not to have all her eggs in the basket of Manchuko. A headstrong Australasia is building trading ties with the Pacific and Asian nations. The easily-led Canadians are following her example and have joined the North American Customs Union. Britain is unhappily worrying if her future may not lie with the European Confederation of Coal and Steel. QED! [1] This is actually a cheat. The collapse of the ACC was triggered by the withdrawal of the New South Wales Cricket Association from the ACC in May 1899. Preventing the NSWCA bolting is, of course, a pre-1900 PoD. Mea culpa. - Syd