Subject: AH challenge! Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:50:04 -0400 From: "abc" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if Is there any way to make Poland a Great Power by 2001 with a PoD (or PoDs) no later than 1913? Poland is in a rather unfortunate situation. No natural borders, wedged between Russians and Germans (not a good place to be in the 20th century...), etc. Can this be done??? -- "If someone is so fearful that, that they're going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, it makes me very nervous that these people have these weapons at all!" - Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) On MSNBC. Subject: Re: AH challenge! Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 23:11:32 -0300 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 abc wrote: > > [deletia] > > Can this be done??? You might be interested in http://www.ahtg.net/TpA/poland60.html On that page, I posit an alternative Poland that has a happier post-Second World War history, including somewhat more autonomy in the 1950's and full democratization and integration with Europe in the 1960's. Though prevented by the terms of the Soviet withdrawal from integrating militarily with Europe, Poland nonetheless enjoyed roaring economic growth that made it one of the largest economies in the world. After the Third World War wrecked the former Soviet Union, Poland naturally emerged as the dominant state of eastern Europe. Does this count? > -- > "If someone is so fearful that, that they're going to start using their > weapons to protect their rights, it makes me very nervous that these people > have these weapons at all!" - Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) On MSNBC. -- Randy McDonald Charlottetown PE Canada Subject: Re: AH challenge! Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:15:11 +0930 From: Michal Rosa Organization: Telstra BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.com) Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 abc wrote: > > Is there any way to make Poland a Great Power by 2001 with a PoD (or PoDs) > no later than 1913? > > Poland is in a rather unfortunate situation. No natural borders, wedged > between Russians and Germans (not a good place to be in the 20th > century...), etc. > > Can this be done??? USofA doesn't betray Poland in the Yalta and Potsdam conferences, so the Russians cannot install a communist government. Poland becomes a democratic country and accepts the Marshall Plan. It works as a buffer between East and West, its economic growth eclipsing even Germany. Ta da! All done. Michal Subject: Re: AH challenge! Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:16:49 GMT From: Alexander Organization: KPNQwest customer news service Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Michal Rosa wrote: > > abc wrote: > > > > Is there any way to make Poland a Great Power by 2001 with a PoD (or PoDs) > > no later than 1913? > > > > Poland is in a rather unfortunate situation. No natural borders, wedged > > between Russians and Germans (not a good place to be in the 20th > > century...), etc. > > > > Can this be done??? > > USofA doesn't betray Poland in the Yalta and Potsdam conferences, so the > Russians cannot install a communist government. Poland becomes a > democratic country and accepts the Marshall Plan. > It works as a buffer between East and West, its economic growth eclipsing > even Germany. Unlikely. Stalin won't give up Eastern Germany, nor any of the East European countries, which Soviet Union is occupying. Even if Poland is still independent, it's surrounded by the Soviet satellites. Soviet army is still occupying it after the war. You'll get as great power as the Soviet Union lets you. Alexander Subject: Re: AH challenge! Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 23:56:18 +0930 From: Michal Rosa Organization: Telstra BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.com) Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Alexander wrote: > > USofA doesn't betray Poland in the Yalta and Potsdam conferences, so the > > Russians cannot install a communist government. Poland becomes a > > democratic country and accepts the Marshall Plan. > > It works as a buffer between East and West, its economic growth eclipsing > > even Germany. > > Unlikely. Stalin won't give up Eastern Germany, nor any of the East European They (Churchill, FDR) never even tried to negotiate with Stalin about it so we'll never know. > countries, which Soviet Union is occupying. Even if Poland is still > independent, it's surrounded by the Soviet satellites. Soviet army That's great - more the reason it would grow, US would pump MUCH more money into it, then it's giving to Israel now... > is still occupying it after the war. You'll get as great power as the No, there are no Sovie troops in Poland - that's the point. > Soviet Union lets you. Or as great as American money can afford. > Alexander Michal Subject: Re: AH challenge! Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:35:01 GMT From: Alexander Organization: KPNQwest customer news service Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 If you try to parallel with Israel. Instead of the having nothing Arabs your enemy is the mighty empire. At least in one matter Soviet Union will be adamant - it will never allow for the Poland to have an army, except of course some decorative one. I doubt it is possible to be a great power without strong military. Though there's Japan, which after WWII for long time wasn't allowed to have much of an army. Subject: Re: AH challenge! Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:31:26 +0100 From: "Ed Thomas" Organization: Customer of PlusNet Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 Look at Johnny Pez's excellent DBTL. It has Poland becoming a major power in the 1940s. Subject: Re: AH challenge! Date: 30 May 2001 10:10:48 GMT From: john0714@aol.com (John0714) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Subject: AH challenge! >From: "abc" abc@yahoo.com >Date: 5/29/01 11:58 PM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: > >Is there any way to make Poland a Great Power by 2001 with a PoD (or PoDs) >no earlier than 1914? > >Poland is in a rather unfortunate situation. No natural borders, wedged >between Russians and Germans (not a good place to be in the 20th >century...), etc. > >Can this be done??? > > ASBs give Poland nukes. >-- >"If someone is so fearful that, that they're going to start using their >weapons to protect their rights, it makes me very nervous that these people >have these weapons at all!" - Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) On MSNBC. > I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend until YOUR DEATH your right to say it! --Austin 3:17 JOHN A. MONTGOMERY Subject: Re: AH challenge! Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:35:30 +0200 From: Eryk Remiezowicz Organization: I-13; PWr Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if, alt.history.what-if References: 1 abc napisał(a): > Is there any way to make Poland a Great Power by 2001 with a PoD (or PoDs) > no earlier than 1914? > > Poland is in a rather unfortunate situation. No natural borders, wedged > between Russians and Germans (not a good place to be in the 20th > century...), etc. > > Can this be done??? First, the silesian and wielkopolska uprisings should get more support from polish army. In OTL Pilsudski decided to concentrate on the Eastern Border, neglecting the possibilities in the West. Then, another outcome of the 1920 polish-russian war would help a lot. The Poles would have to try to rebuild the Commonwealth with Ukrainians, Byelorussians, and Lithuanians. Very difficult, but there is a slight chance. This leads to situation, where both, Russians and Germans will concern Poland as enemy no 1. Poland would have to get closer with Czechoslovakia (concessions in the south, maybe?) and France. Much depends on how the situation in USSR and Germany develops. If the Stalin's purges go like in OTL, then the Russians can't attack until 1942-1943. And, if they concentrate on Poland and neglect Finland, then without the experiences from russian-finnish war they can be beaten back (temporarily, at least). Meanwhile, an internal struggle for power in Germany could help (DBTL?). If Russia and Germany don't attack at once, Poland has a chance. Under this assumptions, somewhere around 1950 Poland would incorporate today's Poland (without Szczecin and Lower Silesia), Lithuania, Byelorussia and Western Ukraine. The state has stable borders now, that the neighbours were beaten. It should also be in good relations with France, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Great Britain. It could become a Great Power. -- Eryk Remiezowicz