Subject: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:48:42 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if 1952- Eisenhower, a man of Swiss-German heritage, is elected President. 1956- Eisenhower is re-elected. 1960- JFK, an Irish Catholic, is elected President. Keep it going. From 1952 onward, no WASP Presidents. Everyone elected needs to be a non-Protestant, or a non-Anglo-Saxon, or a non-White. Eisenhower's ancestors had been here since 1741, but he still had the German last name. Nixon was mostly WASP, only a dash of German in him. He was descended from one of the Kings of England even! So there's the challenge. No more WASP Presidents. So that means JFK will have to live, unless he could plausibly have a non-WASP VP instead of LBJ. Logan Ferree Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 06:42:44 -0400 From: "SP Cook" Organization: Prodigy http://www.prodigy.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Logan Ferree wrote in message > 1952- Eisenhower, a man of Swiss-German heritage, is elected > President. > 1956- Eisenhower is re-elected. > 1960- JFK, an Irish Catholic, is elected President. > > Keep it going. From 1952 onward, no WASP Presidents. Everyone > elected needs to be a non-Protestant, or a non-Anglo-Saxon, or a > non-White. OK, Kennedy lives. His scandals are exposed, and his dealmaking with the Soviets is exposed. People get a clear look at what in OTL became the Great Society, and decide they don't want it. It does great damage to the democrat party and a republican era follows. Barry Goldwater (ethnically Jewish, if that can be considered an ethnicity) is elected and re-elected. That takes us to 1972. Ronald Reagan was of Celtic origin. Morris Udall was Germanic. Lets make that the race in 72 and let Udall win and flop as a president. This seems reasonable since his ultra-environmental policies would be contra-indicated in that particular era. So Reagan comes back in 1976 and 80. That takes us to 1984 with 3 straight successful republicans two-termers and 2 one-term democrat flops. Walter Mondale was of Nordic extraction. Lets elect him against Ronnie's VP, George Bush and let him feel the wings of fate (America having not in this TL lost a president since FDR) and be succeeded by VP Ferarro (Italian). Assume that this is late enough in Mondale's term for the 64 in OTL effect to slide in and Ferarro wins in 88. By 1992, there have been enough changes to make anything possible, but lets stick with people we know and say that Gulf War hero Norman Scharwtzkopfh does an Ike and returns the GOP to power. That takes us to 2000. In 2000 his VP, Colin Powell follows him. Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: 30 May 2001 00:35:41 GMT From: dtenner@ameritech.net (David Tenner) Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Logan Ferree wrote in <3B12AB9A.84C9FD9A@roanoke.infi.net>: >So there's the challenge. No more WASP Presidents. So that means JFK >will have to live, unless he could plausibly have a non-WASP VP instead >of LBJ. How about Seantor Henry "Scoop" Jackson of Washington? "Henry Jackson's parents were Norwegian immigrants who had settled in Everett..." http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/centennial/september/towers.html -- David Tenner dtenner@ameritech.net Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:17:08 GMT From: beathotel@loop.con (J. Yen) Organization: wouldnt you love to find out Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 On Mon, 28 May 2001 15:48:42 -0400, Logan Ferree wrote: > 1952- Eisenhower, a man of Swiss-German heritage, is elected >President. > 1956- Eisenhower is re-elected. > 1960- JFK, an Irish Catholic, is elected President. > > Keep it going. From 1952 onward, no WASP Presidents. IOW, a US in which the original elite group is, if not entirely displaced, definately supplanted... perhaps this would go in with my long running WI which no one seemed to be much interested in, where Ronald Reagan wound up married to Marilyn Monroe and Nancy Davis with Joe Di Maggio. Take away the Reagan/ Monroe part, and envision that anyone who Nancy marries is going to have Reagan's political career and stance, therefore Di Maggio as California governor and president. If anything, Di Maggio would be even more successful at attracting traditionally Democratic white ethnics into the GOP than Ronnie... Everyone >elected needs to be a non-Protestant, or a non-Anglo-Saxon, or a >non-White. Eisenhower's ancestors had been here since 1741, but he >still had the German last name. Nixon was mostly WASP, only a dash of >German in him. He was descended from one of the Kings of England even! >So there's the challenge. No more WASP Presidents. So that means JFK >will have to live, unless he could plausibly have a non-WASP VP instead >of LBJ. Maybe JFK has Irish Catholic California Gov. Pat Brown as VP rather than LBJ, or perhaps John Pastore of Rhode Island, maybe Dennis Chavez of New Mexico ( whom admittedly was getting rather long in the tooth by 1960 ). In '68 maybe have Spiro Agnew as GOP presidential nominee rather than VP, and have Brown or Pastore run for re-election, or perhaps Eugene McCarthy ( whom IIRC was catholic ), or perhaps have Bobby not get shot. This goes along with another WI that I invented - Ted Kennedy winning the '76 presidential election. In this WI perhaps Teddy would wind up going against Di Maggio in 1980, unless his political career is prevented by having no Pat Brown to run against for California governor in 1966. Perhaps have Arlen Specter as Di Maggio's VP. '84 - have Gerry Ferraro run as president rather than VP, marking a landmark of sorts - the first US presidential election where neither candidate is a WASP, and both major party candidates are Italian Americans. ( which has not happened yet in OTL ) . My guess is that DiMaggio would beat her, as Reagan did her and Mondale in OTL. '88 - Specter against Dukakis ; Dukakis wins unlike in OTL, with Jerry Brown as VP... '92 - Colin Powell wins the GOP nomination after his Gulf War triumph, and beats Dukakis on the heels of Democratic mismanagement of the economy. He serves two terms, although has a close race in 1996 against Mario Cuomo. 2000 - Democratic candidate Joseph Lieberman defeats GOP ticket of George Voinovich and Al D'Amato. >Logan Ferree > Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: 29 May 2001 09:13:14 GMT From: john0714@aol.com (John0714) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Subject: Challenge: End the WASPs >From: Logan Ferree lhferree@roanoke.infi.net >Date: 5/28/01 2:48 PM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <3B12AB9A.84C9FD9A@roanoke.infi.net> > > 1952- Eisenhower, a man of Swiss-German heritage, is elected >President. > 1956- Eisenhower is re-elected. > 1960- JFK, an Irish Catholic, is elected President. > > Keep it going. From 1952 onward, no WASP Presidents. Everyone >elected needs to be a non-Protestant, or a non-Anglo-Saxon, or a >non-White. Eisenhower's ancestors had been here since 1741, but he >still had the German last name. Nixon was mostly WASP, only a dash of >German in him. He was descended from one of the Kings of England even! >So there's the challenge. No more WASP Presidents. So that means JFK >will have to live, unless he could plausibly have a non-WASP VP instead >of LBJ. > >Logan Ferree > > You could have JFK live and re-elected in 1964. Barry Goldwater was Jewish by ancestry but Protestant by religion, if you count him you could have him elected in 1968 and re-elected in 1972. If Bobby Kennedy lives you could have him elected in 1976 and reelected in 1980. You could have Pat Buchanon elected in 1984 and re-elected in 1988. You could have Ted Kennedy elected in 1992 and re-elected in 1996. You could have Colin Powell elected in 2000 and serving now. I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend until YOUR DEATH your right to say it! --Austin 3:17 JOHN A. MONTGOMERY Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: 29 May 2001 15:35:14 -0400 From: jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 There are three components I see to being a WASP: White, Anglo- Saxon and Protestant. People have covered the A-S and P but since skin colour is is specified, there must logically be non-White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. That or the phrase has an annoying redundancy in it which is a much less interesting alternative. What defines being Anglo-Saxon? -- The Canadians were a hospitable and tolerant desert people, living on the edge of a wilderness of snow and permafrost. Winnipeg, Regina and Saskatoon were cities of the northern desert, Samarkands of ice. J.G. Ballard Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:05:07 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 I think everything focused on the order of the word WASP. Now maybe it was formed to make the letters spell out something. But first, what are the major ways to classify humans? Skin colour, or race. White, African, Asian, Native American, and then there is an odd category of Hispanic, which means you can be another race too IIRC. So first we select White. Next, let's get more specific. Not just White, but Anglo-Saxon. As opposed to Celtic, French, Russian, etc. etc. So finally, what type of Anglo-Saxon. Catholic, Protestant, Wiccan? Protestant. This is wrong, I'm thinking, but works. Logan Ferree James Nicoll wrote: > There are three components I see to being a WASP: White, Anglo- > Saxon and Protestant. People have covered the A-S and P but since skin > colour is is specified, there must logically be non-White Anglo-Saxon > Protestants. That or the phrase has an annoying redundancy in it which > is a much less interesting alternative. What defines being Anglo-Saxon? > > -- > The Canadians were a hospitable and tolerant desert people, > living on the edge of a wilderness of snow and permafrost. Winnipeg, > Regina and Saskatoon were cities of the northern desert, Samarkands > of ice. J.G. Ballard Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 04:13:13 GMT From: billfl@hiwaay.net (Bill Livingston) Organization: Almost None Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Raid outdoor spray seems to work pretty good. Bill L. 8-D +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ billfl@hiwaay.net http://home.hiwaay.net/~billfl "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people. And if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you." Isaac Jaffee (Robert Guillome), "Sports Night" Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:38:56 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Damnit. Tried to turn the other two joke posts into WI. This . . . can't work with. Sorry. Better luck next time. Logan Ferree Working on Damage Control. Bill Livingston wrote: > Raid outdoor spray seems to work pretty good. > > Bill L. > 8-D > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > billfl@hiwaay.net http://home.hiwaay.net/~billfl > > "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people. And if you're smart, > surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you." > Isaac Jaffee (Robert Guillome), "Sports Night" Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 06:05:45 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 OK, that's it. I thought SHWI was getting better, but I am wrong. We have here three people that I want to see fall off the face of the earth, anyone else going to join their numbers? Logan Ferree P.S. Learn to read. Bill Livingston wrote: > Raid outdoor spray seems to work pretty good. > > Bill L. > 8-D > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > billfl@hiwaay.net http://home.hiwaay.net/~billfl > > "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people. And if you're smart, > surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you." > Isaac Jaffee (Robert Guillome), "Sports Night" Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: 29 May 2001 10:21:22 GMT From: congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs >From: Logan Ferree lhferree@roanoke.infi.net >Date: Tue, May 29, 2001 5:05 AM >Message-id: <3B137479.702BDC37@roanoke.infi.net> > > OK, that's it. I thought SHWI was getting better, but I am wrong. >We >have here three people that I want to see fall off the face of the earth, >anyone else going to join their numbers? > >Logan Ferree > >P.S. Learn to read. Plonk, Logan. President Chester A. Arthur, the anti-Rutherford Hayes Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: 29 May 2001 11:57:34 GMT From: cassiusmaxim@aol.com (Emperor) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 > OK, that's it. I thought SHWI was getting better, but I am wrong. We >have here three people that I want to see fall off the face of the earth, >anyone else going to join their numbers? > >Logan Ferree Hm. Something wrong Logan? This seems rather unlike you. Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:43:03 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Three strikes, your out. I had three people respond to this post in ways that I did not feel were appropriate. The first person was rather funny. But then when the second and third do almost the exact same thing as the first, it is no longer funny. In fact, I find it rude. I'm just making a statement to the group. Logan Ferree Emperor wrote: > > OK, that's it. I thought SHWI was getting better, but I am wrong. We > >have here three people that I want to see fall off the face of the earth, > >anyone else going to join their numbers? > > > >Logan Ferree > > Hm. Something wrong Logan? This seems rather unlike you. Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:03:29 GMT From: billfl@hiwaay.net (Bill Livingston) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 73,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Logan Ferree wrote: >Emperor wrote: >>> OK, that's it. I thought SHWI was getting better, but I am wrong. We >>>have here three people that I want to see fall off the face of the earth, >>>anyone else going to join their numbers? >> >>Hm. Something wrong Logan? This seems rather unlike you. > >Three strikes, your out. I had three people respond to this post in ways >that I did not feel were appropriate. The first person was rather funny. But >then when the second and third do almost the exact same thing as the first, it >is no longer funny. In fact, I find it rude. I'm just making a statement to >the group. I didn't mean to be rude, and I certainly didn't mean to upset you. I certainly apologize if I gave that impression. It was just meant to be a little harmless wordplay. Truce? Peace? FWIW, I mostly lurk around here, but I have enjoyed your "President Humphry" timeline, and even if I don't always agree with all your conclusions, it's certainly intriguing watching you make them. Would you still be interested in an actual response to your premise? Bill L. Clinging desperately to the face of the earth +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ billfl@hiwaay.net http://home.hiwaay.net/~billfl "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people. And if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you." Isaac Jaffee (Robert Guillome), "Sports Night" Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:23:38 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 Bill Livingston wrote: > I didn't mean to be rude, and I certainly didn't mean to upset you. I > certainly apologize if I gave that impression. It was just meant to be a > little harmless wordplay. > > Truce? Peace? Perfectly fine. I hope you understand that I was angry over the post, not you in particular. If it had been someone that I know and talk to a lot I still would have bitten their head off. > FWIW, I mostly lurk around here, but I have enjoyed your "President Humphry" > timeline, and even if I don't always agree with all your conclusions, it's > certainly intriguing watching you make them. Thank you. > Would you still be interested in an actual response to your premise? Feel free to post what ever you wish. Logan Ferree Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: 29 May 2001 15:27:29 -0700 From: starlord@bellsouth.net (Joe Fleetlord Hart) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Logan Ferree wrote in message news:<3B137479.702BDC37@roanoke.infi.net>... > OK, that's it. I thought SHWI was getting better, but I am wrong. We > have here three people that I want to see fall off the face of the earth, > anyone else going to join their numbers? > > Logan Ferree > > P.S. Learn to read. > Ouch! Bad day today, Logan? It's just a little light-hearted humor, for Chrissakes. -Joe Hart "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:22:06 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 Humor is one time. Not two or three. Logan Ferree Joe Fleetlord Hart wrote: > Logan Ferree wrote in message news:<3B137479.702BDC37@roanoke.infi.net>... > > OK, that's it. I thought SHWI was getting better, but I am wrong. We > > have here three people that I want to see fall off the face of the earth, > > anyone else going to join their numbers? > > > > Logan Ferree > > > > P.S. Learn to read. > > > Ouch! Bad day today, Logan? It's just a little light-hearted humor, > for Chrissakes. > > -Joe Hart > > "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and > conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:47:06 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Ba dump dum. Logan Ferree Alexander wrote: > Let's eliminate Martin Luther. Will it help? > > Alexander Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 00:42:45 +0300 From: "Michael Fishman" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 William the Bastard losses Hastings. Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:07:45 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 So do tell how William the Bastard loosing Hastings can result in a United States of America that still has Eisenhower elected in 1952, re-elected in 1956, and then JFK in 1960. I'm all for humor, but sometimes it borders on the point of being rude and obnoxious. Logan Ferree Michael Fishman wrote: > William the Bastard losses Hastings. Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 01:55:12 +0300 From: "Michael Fishman" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 Logan Ferree wrote in message <3B12CC31.BBFF1945@roanoke.infi.net>... > So do tell how William the Bastard loosing Hastings can result in a >United States of America that still has Eisenhower elected in 1952, >re-elected in 1956, and then JFK in 1960. I'm all for humor, but >sometimes it borders on the point of being rude and obnoxious. > >Logan Ferree > >Michael Fishman wrote: > >> William the Bastard losses Hastings. Sorry. Missed the earlier post. Willliam losing Hastings = no English. Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 06:58:06 +0100 From: Alison Brooks Organization: Dis Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 In article <9eul4k$1a4jc$1@ID-79336.news.dfncis.de>, Michael Fishman writes > > >Sorry. Missed the earlier post. Willliam losing Hastings = no English. > Curious. I'm sure that Harold and the Saxons would be surprised to hear that. The first king of England (Athelstane) rather pre-dates William. -- Alison Brooks http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/ Subject: Re: Challenge: End the WASPs Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:13:43 +0300 From: "Michael Fishman" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1, 2, 3 , 4, 5 , 6 Alison Brooks wrote in message ... >In article <9eul4k$1a4jc$1@ID-79336.news.dfncis.de>, Michael Fishman > writes >> > >> >>Sorry. Missed the earlier post. Willliam losing Hastings = no English. >> > >Curious. I'm sure that Harold and the Saxons would be surprised to hear >that. > >The first king of England (Athelstane) rather pre-dates William. > English language.