Subject: Dr. Johnson's Cornwall scenario: a challenge Date: 4 Jun 2001 05:45:56 GMT From: dtenner@ameritech.net (David Tenner) Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if In *Taxation No Tyranny* http://www.samueljohnson.com/tnt.html Dr. Samuel Johnson attempted to reduce the claims of the American colonies to absurdity by the following comparison: "As political diseases are naturally contagious, let it be supposed, for a moment, that Cornwall, seized with the Philadelphian phrensy, may resolve to separate itself from the general system of the English constitution, and judge of its own rights in its own parliament. A congress might then meet at Truro, and address the other counties in a style not unlike the language of the American patriots: "FRIENDS AND FELLOW-SUBJECTS,—We, the delegates of the several towns and parishes of Cornwall, assembled to deliberate upon our own state, and that of our constituents, having, after serious debate and calm consideration, settled the scheme of our future conduct, hold it necessary to declare the resolutions which we think ourselves entitled to form, by the unalienable rights of reasonable beings, and into which we have been compelled by grievances and oppressions, long endured by us in patient silence, not because we did not feel, or could not remove them, but because we were unwilling to give disturbance to a settled government, and hoped that others would, in time, find, like ourselves, their true interest and their original powers, and all cooperate to universal happiness. "But since, having long indulged the pleasing expectation, we find general discontent not likely to increase, or not likely to end in general defection, we resolve to erect alone the standard of liberty. "Know then, that you are no longer to consider Cornwall as an English county, visited by English judges, receiving law from an English parliament, or included in any general taxation of the kingdom; but as a state, distinct and independent, governed by its own institutions, administered by its own magistrates, and exempt from any tax or tribute, but such as we shall impose upon ourselves. "We are the acknowledged descendants of the earliest inhabitants of Britain, of men, who, before the time of history, took possession of the island desolate and waste, and, therefore, open to the first occupants. Of this descent, our language is a sufficient proof, which, not quite a century ago, was different from yours. "Such are the Cornishmen; but who are you? who, but the unauthorised and lawless children of intruders, invaders, and oppressors? who, but the transmitters of wrong, the inheritors of robbery? In claiming independence, we claim but little. We might require you to depart from a land which you possess by usurpation, and to restore all that you have taken from us. "Independence is the gift of nature. No man is born the master of another. Every Cornishman is a freeman; for we have never resigned the rights of humanity; and he only can be thought free, who is not governed but by his own consent." Et cetera, et cetera. Johnson triumphantly concludes: "Of this memorial what could be said, but that it was written in jest, or written by a madman? Yet I know not whether the warmest admirers of Pennsylvania eloquence, can find any argument in the addresses of the congress, that is not, with greater strength, urged by the Cornishman." Now here is my challenge: create a scenario where Dr. Johnson's intended reductio ad absurdum actually becomes a fulfilled prophecy. Obviously a tall order. Even Mebyon Kernow's manifesto does not seem to me to advocate outright independence. http://members.tripod.co.uk/trebell/whymk.htm (stating that "We as Cornish people should be having a greater say in how Cornwall is governed," and calling for a legislative Cornish Assembly and "regionalisation of Europe, with Cornwall taking its rightful place as a self-governing nation within a decentralised Europe of the Peoples, where all the historic nations and regions are represented.") Still, all sorts of unexpected independent nations have arisen since *Taxation No Tyranny*... -- David Tenner dtenner@ameritech.net Subject: Re: Dr. Johnson's Cornwall scenario: a challenge Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 18:45:12 +0100 From: "Karl Stringer" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 David Tenner wrote in message news:90B68582dtennerameritechnet@enews.newsguy.com... > Now here is my challenge: create a scenario where Dr. Johnson's intended > reductio ad absurdum actually becomes a fulfilled prophecy. Obviously a > tall order. Even Mebyon Kernow's manifesto does not seem to me to advocate > outright independence. http://members.tripod.co.uk/trebell/whymk.htm > (stating that "We as Cornish people should be having a greater say in how > Cornwall is governed," and calling for a legislative Cornish Assembly and > "regionalisation of Europe, with Cornwall taking its rightful place as a > self-governing nation within a decentralised Europe of the Peoples, where > all the historic nations and regions are represented.") Still, all sorts > of unexpected independent nations have arisen since *Taxation No > Tyranny*... What _exactly_ is the challenge? A Cornwall that declares independence from England, or one that does so as a direct consequence of the AWI? If it's the former, then "been there, done that". Cornwall seceded from England in my Lilburne's World TL. Hey, do you really think that in a TL that included, amongst others, a George Washington being crowned king (and then later executed for treason), a successful Sealion (specifically done without ASBs, but with Orkney superguns and Jello Bridges), a Zimbabwe with a coastline, an Austrian Munich and a Mexico that becomes a superpower, that I'd then miss something as easy to arrange as an independent Cornwall? Mmmm, you know, putting it that way, it almost sounds like something Quonnie might have written in his early days. Eeeck! :-) Subject: Re: Dr. Johnson's Cornwall scenario: a challenge Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:44:34 -0300 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 David Tenner wrote: > > [deletia] > > Now here is my challenge: create a scenario where Dr. Johnson's intended > reductio ad absurdum actually becomes a fulfilled prophecy. Obviously a > tall order. Even Mebyon Kernow's manifesto does not seem to me to advocate > outright independence. http://members.tripod.co.uk/trebell/whymk.htm > (stating that "We as Cornish people should be having a greater say in how > Cornwall is governed," and calling for a legislative Cornish Assembly and > "regionalisation of Europe, with Cornwall taking its rightful place as a > self-governing nation within a decentralised Europe of the Peoples, where > all the historic nations and regions are represented.") Still, all sorts > of unexpected independent nations have arisen since *Taxation No > Tyranny*... What kind of POD are you thinking of? If you're thinking about Cornish ethnic nationalism, then at the very latest you'd need a POD in the 16th century -- perhaps Cornwall opts to remain Catholic while the rest of England becomes Anglican? The very latest POD I can imagine for a Cornwall not under the rule of London would be a foreign-imposed peace in the English Civil War that would leave Cornwall, along with Wales and west England, as part of a rump Stuart English kingdom. (I retract my first statement in part: If you inflict a nuclear exchange upon England, Cornwall might emerge as a post-apocalyptic successor state, though this seems like cheating.) The problem with an independent Cornwall is twofold: Not only is Cornwall too small in terms of population and land area, but the Cornish language has a relatively small pre-restoration literary heritage. You'd need some kind of foreign links to keep Cornwall going, perhaps (I'm just tossing out ideas here) a dynastic federation with Wales or Brittany. > -- > David Tenner > dtenner@ameritech.net -- Randy McDonald Charlottetown PE Canada Subject: Re: Dr. Johnson's Cornwall scenario: a challenge Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 18:20:40 +0100 From: Lyn David Thomas Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:44:34 -0300, Randy McDonald wrote: >The problem with an independent Cornwall is twofold: Not only is >Cornwall too small in terms of population and land area, but the Cornish >language has a relatively small pre-restoration literary heritage. You'd >need some kind of foreign links to keep Cornwall going, perhaps (I'm >just tossing out ideas here) a dynastic federation with Wales or >Brittany. That is not so unlikely, some Cornish Language campaigners have suggested that Cornish could be accorded the staus as a Welsh dialect and thus get some legal protection.... Part of the Tripartite Indenture of Glyndwr saw St David's become the metropolitian see for St Germans... So if the Tripartite Indenture was successful you could have an English Civil War between the two English successor kingdoms which could see Cornwall asking Wales for help? Maybe becoming a Welsh protectorate? All ASB stuff. Then there are the Stannaries - we could get them to survive and function as a real legislature rather than just a tinners guild organisation.... -- \/ Lyn David Thomas Webpages start at: http://www.cibwr.freeserve.co.uk Subject: Re: Dr. Johnson's Cornwall scenario: a challenge Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 18:00:14 -0300 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Lyn David Thomas wrote: > > On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:44:34 -0300, Randy McDonald > wrote: > > >The problem with an independent Cornwall is twofold: Not only is > >Cornwall too small in terms of population and land area, but the Cornish > >language has a relatively small pre-restoration literary heritage. You'd > >need some kind of foreign links to keep Cornwall going, perhaps (I'm > >just tossing out ideas here) a dynastic federation with Wales or > >Brittany. > > That is not so unlikely, some Cornish Language campaigners have > suggested that Cornish could be accorded the staus as a Welsh dialect > and thus get some legal protection.... True. The problem with gaining even an honorary status for the Cornish language is that Cornish is a reconstructed language, with only thousands of second-language speakers and hardly any first-language speakers. (It depends, I suppose, on how successful the Cornish-language crèches are.) People who want to promote the Cornish language are further faced with the question of how to produce a viable (in terms of size and content) Cornish-language literature. And then, there's the fact that something like a majority of the Cornish population isn't native to Cornwall, at least circa the 1970's. > Part of the Tripartite Indenture of Glyndwr saw St David's become the > metropolitian see for St Germans... So if the Tripartite Indenture That being the division of the Kingdom of England between northern and southern nobles and a kind of greater Wales? > was successful you could have an English Civil War between the two > English successor kingdoms which could see Cornwall asking Wales for > help? Maybe becoming a Welsh protectorate? All ASB stuff. Wasn't Cornwall included in the Welsh kingdom? Hmm -- might west England be assimilated to the Welsh language in this TL, assuming that it endures? > Then there are the Stannaries - we could get them to survive and > function as a real legislature rather than just a tinners guild > organisation.... But that didn't help Manx. > -- > \/ Lyn David Thomas > Webpages start at: > http://www.cibwr.freeserve.co.uk -- Randy McDonald Charlottetown PE Canada Subject: Re: Dr. Johnson's Cornwall scenario: a challenge Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 16:34:53 +0100 From: Lyn David Thomas Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 On Thu, 07 Jun 2001 18:00:14 -0300, Randy McDonald wrote: >Lyn David Thomas wrote: >> >> On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:44:34 -0300, Randy McDonald >> wrote: >> >> >The problem with an independent Cornwall is twofold: Not only is >> >Cornwall too small in terms of population and land area, but the Cornish >> >language has a relatively small pre-restoration literary heritage. You'd >> >need some kind of foreign links to keep Cornwall going, perhaps (I'm >> >just tossing out ideas here) a dynastic federation with Wales or >> >Brittany. >> >> That is not so unlikely, some Cornish Language campaigners have >> suggested that Cornish could be accorded the staus as a Welsh dialect >> and thus get some legal protection.... > >True. The problem with gaining even an honorary status for the Cornish >language is that Cornish is a reconstructed language, with only >thousands of second-language speakers and hardly any first-language >speakers. (It depends, I suppose, on how successful the Cornish-language >crèches are.) People who want to promote the Cornish language are >further faced with the question of how to produce a viable (in terms of >size and content) Cornish-language literature. Yep. >And then, there's the fact that something like a majority of the Cornish >population isn't native to Cornwall, at least circa the 1970's. I used to have a paper on the state of Cornish in Cornwall, I'll try to dig it out for you. >> Part of the Tripartite Indenture of Glyndwr saw St David's become the >> metropolitian see for St Germans... So if the Tripartite Indenture > >That being the division of the Kingdom of England between northern and >southern nobles and a kind of greater Wales? Sort of yes, England divided into a Northern and a Southern Kingdom and a Wales to its ancient borders - taking in much of the march and Cheshire. The Welsh Church would become independent of Canterbury and would gain control of those bishoprics that once were tied to St David's, ie Lichfield and westwards, including Bath and Wells and Cornwall. >> was successful you could have an English Civil War between the two >> English successor kingdoms which could see Cornwall asking Wales for >> help? Maybe becoming a Welsh protectorate? All ASB stuff. > >Wasn't Cornwall included in the Welsh kingdom? Hmm -- might west England >be assimilated to the Welsh language in this TL, assuming that it >endures? No Cornwall wasn't, it was to be part of the Southern English Kingdom (if that had ever happened) but it was under the ecclesiastical control of St David's. >> Then there are the Stannaries - we could get them to survive and >> function as a real legislature rather than just a tinners guild >> organisation.... > >But that didn't help Manx. Well it could have if Man had a strong protector where Manx was continuously used in government - other than just for ceremonial purposes (like it is now). -- \/ Lyn David Thomas Webpages start at: http://www.cibwr.freeserve.co.uk