Subject: AH Challenge: Avignon Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:54:00 GMT From: Spiritualist Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if Challenge- To construct a TL in which Avignon is the home of the Pope, the leader of the Catholic Church. You cannot have two rival churches, one in Avignon and one in Rome. There can only be one Catholic Church in this TL and that one is HQed Avignon. Can it be done? -- Spiritualist Shades of History http://www.alternatehistory.com/hosting/spiritualist/ Alternative Zoology http://members.nbci.com/agrarianist/index.htm "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."- John Adams "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together"- James Madison Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Avignon Date: 11 Feb 2001 04:04:47 GMT From: prestorjon@aol.com (Prestorjon) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 << Challenge- To construct a TL in which Avignon is the home of the Pope, the leader of the Catholic Church. You cannot have two rival churches, one in Avignon and one in Rome. There can only be one Catholic Church in this TL and that one is HQed Avignon. Can it be done?>> The RPG Torg, about alternate worlds invading earth had as one of the invading worlds a TL where the Avignon papavy took over the earth. Of course that TL was ASB terrioty because it involved an Avignon Cardinal finding an ancient dimension travelling computer which helped him take over the world. ----------------- He had been our Destroyer, the doer of things We dreamed of doing but could not bring ourselves to do, The fears of years, like a biting whip, Had cut deep bloody grooves Across our backs. -Etheridge Knight Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Avignon Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:22:57 +0000 From: Pete Barrett Organization: A Beeb User Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 On Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:54:00 GMT, Spiritualist wrote: > Challenge- To construct a TL in which Avignon is the home of the >Pope, the leader of the Catholic Church. You cannot have two rival >churches, one in Avignon and one in Rome. There can only be one >Catholic Church in this TL and that one is HQed Avignon. Can it be >done? I don't see why not. Surely all that's necessary is for Gregory XI not to move back to Rome, and for none of his successors to do so either. When he moved (1376) the Papacy had been established in Avignon for 70 years and 6 Popes - how much longer would it need for the residence of the Pope at Avignon to be a matter of course? I would guess that another 50 years would do it, if the Pope ceases to use the title of Bishop of Rome. Pete Barrett Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Avignon Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:44:28 -0500 From: Pavel Organization: None Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Spiritualist wrote: > Challenge- To construct a TL in which Avignon is the home of the > Pope, the leader of the Catholic Church. You cannot have two rival > churches, one in Avignon and one in Rome. There can only be one > Catholic Church in this TL and that one is HQed Avignon. Can it be > done? The Avignon Pope mounts an aggressive and effective PR campaign which convinces most of Catholic Europe that the Roman Pope is the Anti-Christ and establishes his obvious right to the throne of Peter. A new crusade is launched against Rome and the few Italian state that support the Roman Pope. After a brief campaign, Avignon wins. The Vatican is destroyed, the ground sown with salt, etc. To ensure that Rome will not rise again, the city is forbidden its own bishop, being placed in the ecclesiastical district of Naples or some other city. Avignon remains the center of the Papacy from then on. Perhaps, having seen that secular power can destroy a Pope, Avignon will be more responsive to later attempts at reformation, avoiding Protestantism altogether. pli Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Avignon Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:46:42 +1100 From: Sydney Webb Organization: Webb Family Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Pavel wrote: > Avignon remains the center of the Papacy from then on. Perhaps, having seen > that secular power can destroy a Pope, Avignon will be more responsive to > later attempts at reformation, avoiding Protestantism altogether. Whoa! Nice hand-wave. How do they do that? Remember that the Reformation was not just a revolt against abuses of the established Church (although that was part of it) but also the development (or restoration) of an entire new theology of mankind's relationship with God and the respective roles of Faith, Grace and Works. Given that in OTL the Pope returned from Avignon in 1376 what PoD will prevent the rise of the Hussites in Bohemia or the Devotio Moderna in the Netherlands? - Syd Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Avignon Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:45:15 +0100 From: "Antonio González" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 "Spiritualist" escribió en el mensaje news:964gq5$q56$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Challenge- To construct a TL in which Avignon is the home of the > Pope, the leader of the Catholic Church. You cannot have two rival > churches, one in Avignon and one in Rome. There can only be one > Catholic Church in this TL and that one is HQed Avignon. Can it be > done? > Of course. Gregory IX suffered a strong pressure from the King of France, the cardinals and his own family to stay in Avignon, where they were rich and safe, and not to move to Rome, that at the moment was a very dangerous place. So, if he were less decided to do the move, Avignon would be the capital of the RCC. A second, and later, POD would be to make the French cardinals to travel to Rome with Gregory, instead of staying in Avignon. It was the numerical superiority of Italian cardinals that caused the election of Urban VI and, later on, the Western Schism. If they were in Rome, they could have elected Clement VII directly. He would move back to Avignon, without Schism. An even later POD would be that, after the election of Urban VI and Clement VII as in OTL, the whole Christendom recognises Clement as the true pope and Urban VI as an antipope (It is curious that, in OTL, the RCC has never declared who were the legitimate popes. It seems that the RCC can have two popes at the same time). To finish the task, let the Pope stay in Avignon for a hundred years. Then, make the Spanish (through the Kingdom of Naples) to invade the Papal States, accusing the pope of collaborating with the enemy (that is likely to happen). Perhaps an excomunication will follow and the "Catholic Kings" are no longer catholic. There are many consequences of an Avignon Papacy: First, the become more and more involved in French politics, transforming them in French subjects. Second, the Western Schism ended with the idea of an Universal Papacy, and made the popes Italian Kings during the Renaissance. In this ATL, this does not happen and the Renaissance is weaker. The Italian politics would go more or less like in OTL. The pope would give Naples to Charles of Anjou, and first the French and then the Spanish would invade Italy. That would end with any pretension of papal neutrality and the end of the Papal States. The Reform would happen on a different basis. In OTL had to do with the luxuries of the Vatican, that here don't exists. On the contrary, there is probably a Reform based on the opposition to a French Papacy. That could lead to the formation of National Churches (not only in Northern Europe, but in Spain or Italy too). Add to this the rivalry between Spain and France. Each National Church could reform on its own way. Probably there would be callings for Conciles and a more democratic organisation of the church, in some parts, like Germany, or to a reformed and disciplined religion in others, like Spain with Cisneros. Antonio Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Avignon Date: 12 Feb 2001 23:58:16 GMT From: vewenneker@aol.com (VEWenneker) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 << "Antonio González >> Antonio: You provided us a very good, in depth response, to this question. Thanks. Subject: Re: AH Challenge: Avignon Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:53:05 +0100 From: "Antonio González" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 "VEWenneker" escribió en el mensaje news:20010212185816.05756.00001425@ng-md1.aol.com... > << "Antonio González >> > > > Antonio: You provided us a very good, in depth response, to this question. > Thanks. Well, I did my homework some months ago, when I wrote a ATL where the Western Schism expanded to five popes. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Papacy+group:soc.history.what-if&hl=en&lr= &safe=off&rnum=1&seld=961979069&ic=1 I had to use a lot the Britannica and, at the end, I was able to put the numbers of the Gregorys correctly (now, I am confusing them again) Antonio