Subject: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:05:32 -0400 From: daniel patrick duffy Organization: private Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if Want to read a scary and depressing article? Try "Russia is Finished" in this month's Atlantic Monthly. Russia's implosion continues and there isn't much Putin can do to prevent the Motherland from becoming an irrelevant third world nation. as someone was quoted in the article "Think Zaire with permafrost" (and left over nukes). Now comes the challenge, can anyone come up with a scenario were it is the USA which suffers such a fall from greatness? Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 17 Apr 2001 22:19:20 GMT From: congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Jesse Byock crashes an airliner into the Capitol Building during Nixon's 1969 State of the Union Address, wiping out everyone but Spiro Agnew. Bitter and paranoid, Agnew cracks down on domestic non-conservative Republicanism, imposing martial law and arresting hundreds of prominent leftists. Agnew also invades both Cuba and North Vietnam; US forces take heavy casualties doing both, but they succeed in winning the wars, driving the Soviet Union and China firmly back into each other's arms. Domestic disturbances in the US get worse and worse in the early '70s and morale in the military drops lower and lower as the Agnew administration gets the US involved in South American, African, and Southeast Asian brushwars. Allegations that Agnew took bribes while Governor of Maryland are met with arrests, the government assumes control of the media. Agnew suspends the election of 1972 and puts nuclear weapons in Vietnam, NATO votes to simply expel the US, which responds by seizing Iceland and the Faeroes mounting missiles there, too. In 1974, John Erlichmann tries to assasinate Agnew, and in the ensuing chaos, the balloon goes up. Of course, that takes care of other areas of the world... President Chester A. Arthur, the anti-Rutherford Hayes Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:33:22 UNDEFINED From: rmcdonald@upei.ca Organization: University of Prince Edward Island Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 In article <3ADCBE2C.9CD10764@fuse.net> daniel patrick duffy writes: >From: daniel patrick duffy >Subject: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" >Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:05:32 -0400 >[deletia] > >Now comes the challenge, can anyone come up with a scenario were it is >the USA which suffers such a fall from greatness? Oh, I've done that already. Go to: http://www.ahtg.net/TpA/tpaguide.html for my scenario, named "Tripartite Alliance Earth." For more US-specific information, go to http://www.ahtg.net/TpA/tpanoram.html In my TL, the US became isolationist as a result of the US hosting a theatre of the Napoleonic Wars. It closed down immigration in the 1850's, with a much stronger Know-Nothing movement. The US was still a liberal country, despite the permanent reduction of Southern Blacks outside of liberal (and Francophone; check http://www.ahtg.net/TpA/louisian.html for more) Louisiana to serfdom. In the 1930's, the US was hit quite hard by the Great Depression. Even as the League of Nations -- including the rich and populous South American states as leading members -- coordinated a global Keynesian reflation of their economies, the US languished. The _quarante glorieuses_ -- the post-Second World War economic boom -- mostly bypassed the United States. As OTL, civil rights began in the US in the 1960's. Unlike OTL, the Deep South's states had black majorities of population. In Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia, transitions to democracy took place easily. In South Carolina, though, things quickly deteriorated into a quasi-Maoist guerrilla uprising. Things deteriorated exponentially from there, and Nixon from 1976 began to impose a police state. He was knocked off by his Vice-President, Elizabeth Chang, at his second inauguration in 1981. The Third World War -- http://www.ahtg.net/TpA/ww3.html -- followed naturally enough from that. In the aftermath, neutral Mexico, Canada, and post-US Cuba were the major powers, while the US' direct successor states fought a long and bloody civil war. Now, the US' leading successor states are about as important to the surviving world (mainly the neutrals of the Southern Hemisphere, Europe and the Mediterranean, and East Asia) as, oh, Thailand is to the US. Good enough? Later, Randy McDonald Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 18 Apr 2001 01:46:40 GMT From: che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >In Mississippi, Alabama, and >Georgia, transitions to democracy took place easily. In South Carolina, >though, things quickly deteriorated into a quasi-Maoist guerrilla uprising. Hm. Why's that, when we (South Carolinians) only had really one major civil rights incedent? States like, say, Mississippi have a long history, dating from ante-bellum times, of being more hard line than South Carolina. Mister Wiggins. "Well Govan, If we are to die, let us die like men."- Last words of Pat Cleburne. 1864 "Hey y'all, watch this!"- Redneck's famous last words Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 18 Apr 2001 01:51:48 GMT From: congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" >From: che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) >Date: 4/17/2001 9:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time >Message-id: <20010417214640.21746.00000550@ng-bj1.aol.com> > >>In Mississippi, Alabama, and >>Georgia, transitions to democracy took place easily. In South Carolina, >>though, things quickly deteriorated into a quasi-Maoist guerrilla uprising. > >Hm. Why's that, when we (South Carolinians) only had really one major civil >rights incedent? States like, say, Mississippi have a long history, dating >from ante-bellum times, of being more hard line than South Carolina Would it offend you if I laughed? =) President Chester A. Arthur, the anti-Rutherford Hayes Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 18 Apr 2001 02:51:26 GMT From: che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >>Hm. Why's that, when we (South Carolinians) only had really one major civil >>rights incedent? States like, say, Mississippi have a long history, dating >>from ante-bellum times, of being more hard line than South Carolina > >Would it offend you if I laughed? =) Well, the major civil rights incedent that was (and is) coming to mind is the Orangeburg massacre, which, while it's certainly a terrible thing, isn't half as bad as some of the things going on in Mississippi. The comment about Mississippi being more hard-line than South Carolina would seem to be corroborated by laws of the time. For instance, IIRC, Mississippi was one of the states that "outlawed" free blacks. The 1860 census would seem to corroborate this, there's something like 773 free blacks in the whole state of Mississippi, while in South Carolina, its nearly 10,000. That's 2% of the South Carolina population, a high percentage of free blacks for a slave state. Also, free blacks not only were allowed to exist in South Carolina, ISTR that quite a few were owning slaves themselves. I'm well aware that South Carolina was one of the most hardline states around for quite sometime, but I've always been under the impression (which seems like it's corroborated by OTL evidence, civil rights, free blacks, etc.) that Mississippi was moreso. Mister Wiggins. "Well Govan, If we are to die, let us die like men."- Last words of Pat Cleburne. 1864 "Hey y'all, watch this!"- Redneck's famous last words Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 18 Apr 2001 03:08:09 GMT From: congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" >From: che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) >Date: 4/17/2001 10:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time >Message-id: <20010417225126.21798.00000530@ng-bj1.aol.com> > >Well, the major civil rights incedent that was (and is) coming to mind is the >Orangeburg massacre, which, while it's certainly a terrible thing, isn't half >as bad as some of the things going on in Mississippi. The comment about >Mississippi being more hard-line than South Carolina would seem to be >corroborated by laws of the time. For instance, IIRC, Mississippi was one of >the states that "outlawed" free blacks. The 1860 census would seem to >corroborate this, there's something like 773 free blacks in the whole state >of >Mississippi, while in South Carolina, its nearly 10,000. That's 2% of the >South Carolina population, a high percentage of free blacks for a slave >state. >Also, free blacks not only were allowed to exist in South Carolina, ISTR that >quite a few were owning slaves themselves. I'm well aware that South >Carolina >was one of the most hardline states around for quite sometime, but I've >always >been under the impression (which seems like it's corroborated by OTL >evidence, >civil rights, free blacks, etc.) that Mississippi was moreso. > ::coughCivilWarcough:: =) President Chester A. Arthur, the anti-Rutherford Hayes Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 18 Apr 2001 20:12:05 GMT From: che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >::coughCivilWarcough:: =) Heh heh. We always have been a bit hotheaded. Mister Wiggins. "Well Govan, If we are to die, let us die like men."- Last words of Pat Cleburne. 1864 "Hey y'all, watch this!"- Redneck's famous last words Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 04:26:58 GMT From: adamyoshida@home.com (Adam Yoshida) Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 On 18 Apr 2001 01:46:40 GMT, che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) wrote: >>In Mississippi, Alabama, and >>Georgia, transitions to democracy took place easily. In South Carolina, >>though, things quickly deteriorated into a quasi-Maoist guerrilla uprising. > >Hm. Why's that, when we (South Carolinians) only had really one major civil >rights incedent? States like, say, Mississippi have a long history, dating >from ante-bellum times, of being more hard line than South Carolina. Well that and the unpleasant business of being the first state to leave the Union. Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 18 Apr 2001 10:52:43 GMT From: jsbassior@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Mister Wiggins said: >Hm. Why's that, when we (South Carolinians) only had really one major civil >rights incedent? States like, say, Mississippi have a long history, dating >from ante-bellum times, of being more hard line than South Carolina. Yes ... wasn't it due to the harshness of slavery in Mississippi that the threat of being "sold down the river" had its sting? -- Sincerely Yours, Jordan -- "To urge the preparation of defence is not to assert the imminence of war. On the contrary, if war were imminent, preparations for defense would be too late." (Churchill, 1934) -- Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 18 Apr 2001 20:31:56 GMT From: che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Yes ... wasn't it due to the harshness of slavery in Mississippi that the >threat of being "sold down the river" had its sting? That's part of it. Being sold into the Delta area even in Louisiana was bad; the work was inhumanly hard. However, if I had the choice of being sold to a Delta-area plantation owner in Louisiana or Mississippi, there's no doubt in my mind that I'd choose Louisiana. Mister Wiggins. "Well Govan, If we are to die, let us die like men."- Last words of Pat Cleburne. 1864 "Hey y'all, watch this!"- Redneck's famous last words Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:49:56 -0300 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Mister Wiggins wrote: > > >In Mississippi, Alabama, and > >Georgia, transitions to democracy took place easily. In South Carolina, > >though, things quickly deteriorated into a quasi-Maoist guerrilla uprising. > > Hm. Why's that, when we (South Carolinians) only had really one major civil > rights incedent? States like, say, Mississippi have a long history, dating > from ante-bellum times, of being more hard line than South Carolina. I'd assumed that there was a west-east split, between mostly African-American lowlands in the east and the white American Appalachian districts in the west. In the three states that I mentioned, there was a secure African-American majority everywhere (the Great Migration of the first quarter of the 20th century involved southern whites, not blacks). A transition to democracy was inevitable in those circumstances. In South Carolina, there wasn't a clear African-American majority in almost every county of the state, despite a global majority, and the white state government could more-or-less safely ignore the civil rights movement. Insert a few massacres perpetrated by white terrorist groups closely linked to the state government, and things finally boil over as blacks take up arms against their cruel government. > Mister Wiggins. > > "Well Govan, If we are to die, let us die like men."- > > Last words of Pat Cleburne. 1864 > > "Hey y'all, watch this!"- > > Redneck's famous last words -- Randy McDonald Charlottetown PE Canada Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 18 Apr 2001 20:29:12 GMT From: che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >I'd assumed that there was a west-east split, between mostly >African-American lowlands in the east and the white American Appalachian >districts in the west. In the three states that I mentioned, there was a >secure African-American majority everywhere (the Great Migration of the >first quarter of the 20th century involved southern whites, not blacks). >A transition to democracy was inevitable in those circumstances. > >In South Carolina, there wasn't a clear African-American majority in >almost every county of the state, despite a global majority, and the >white state government could more-or-less safely ignore the civil rights >movement. Insert a few massacres perpetrated by white terrorist groups >closely linked to the state government, and things finally boil over as >blacks take up arms against their cruel government. Ah. Okay, that about explains it. Thanks. Mister Wiggins. "Well Govan, If we are to die, let us die like men."- Last words of Pat Cleburne. 1864 "Hey y'all, watch this!"- Redneck's famous last words Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:57:59 -0300 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Mister Wiggins wrote: > > >I'd assumed that there was a west-east split, between mostly > >African-American lowlands in the east and the white American Appalachian > >districts in the west. In the three states that I mentioned, there was a > >secure African-American majority everywhere (the Great Migration of the > >first quarter of the 20th century involved southern whites, not blacks). > >A transition to democracy was inevitable in those circumstances. > > > >In South Carolina, there wasn't a clear African-American majority in > >almost every county of the state, despite a global majority, and the > >white state government could more-or-less safely ignore the civil rights > >movement. Insert a few massacres perpetrated by white terrorist groups > >closely linked to the state government, and things finally boil over as > >blacks take up arms against their cruel government. > > Ah. Okay, that about explains it. Thanks. Right. I was basically going for an absolute worst-case scenario, i.e. blacks trying to gain equal civil rights with whties but a final devastating rebuff that makes more than a few blacks decide violent uprisings are the only way to go. > Mister Wiggins. > > "Well Govan, If we are to die, let us die like men."- > > Last words of Pat Cleburne. 1864 > > "Hey y'all, watch this!"- > > Redneck's famous last words -- Randy McDonald Charlottetown PE Canada Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:16:27 -0700 From: Mike Ralls Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Randy McDonald wrote: > devastating rebuff that makes more than a few blacks decide violent > uprisings are the only way to go. Problem with that is that it results in them beign slaughtered. The blacks weren't stupid, they new that the whites had the power and would respond to any violent uprisings with extreme brutality and force. Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 19 Apr 2001 02:37:22 GMT From: congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" >From: Mike Ralls mralls@willamette.edu >Date: 4/18/2001 10:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time >Message-id: <3ADE4A7B.DB0F218@willamette.edu> > >Randy McDonald wrote: > >> devastating rebuff that makes more than a few blacks decide violent >> uprisings are the only way to go. > >Problem with that is that it results in them beign slaughtered. The blacks >weren't stupid, they new that the whites had the power and would respond to >any >violent uprisings with extreme brutality and force. > It makes sense to me, in a scary way, given the outright black majorities in Randy's South. Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 19 Apr 2001 03:02:40 GMT From: che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >It makes sense to me, in a scary way, given the outright black majorities in >Randy's South. Certainly. Mister Wiggins. "Well Govan, If we are to die, let us die like men."- Last words of Pat Cleburne. 1864 "Hey y'all, watch this!"- Redneck's famous last words Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:29:41 -0300 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 Mike Ralls wrote: > > Randy McDonald wrote: > > > devastating rebuff that makes more than a few blacks decide violent > > uprisings are the only way to go. > > Problem with that is that it results in them beign slaughtered. The blacks > weren't stupid, they new that the whites had the power and would respond to any > violent uprisings with extreme brutality and force. And that's what blacks believed for the first while. By the Nixon Administration, though, pointlessly brutal campaigns of massacre by the secret police have managed to radicalize even moderate blacks. (And Hispanics, don't forget Hispanics; the execution-style killings of Hispanic activists in Texas and California sparked similar terrorism.) It didn't help that the Nixon Administration used the FBI's COINTELPRO program to manipulate terrorist groups into committing outrages against white citizens that would be used to justify further militarization of American society. By the early 1980's, the National Guards of black-majority states were busily handing out guns to anyone who felt that they needed protection from the state, which was pretty much everyone. If it wasn't for the Third World War, there might well have been a multi-sided civil war in the US. As it was, blacks were convinced by centuries of white racism and by general reprisals against the black community for the actions of the few that it was impossible to be both "black" and "American." The South is the New African Confederacy, now. -- Randy McDonald Charlottetown PE Canada Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:45:20 +0100 From: "Fabian" Organization: The Bureau of Lost Souls Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 wrote in message news:rmcdonald.356.000E61B1@upei.ca... > >Now comes the challenge, can anyone come up with a scenario were it is > >the USA which suffers such a fall from greatness? > > Oh, I've done that already. Go to: > > http://www.ahtg.net/TpA/tpaguide.html > > for my scenario, named "Tripartite Alliance Earth." For more US-specific > information, go to Wow, I loved that history! I even made a civ2 scenario based on it (only 85% complete, never uploaded). -- -- Fabian The human didn't notice. Did other cats have this problem with their pets? Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:46:36 -0300 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Fabian wrote: > > wrote in message news:rmcdonald.356.000E61B1@upei.ca... > > > >Now comes the challenge, can anyone come up with a scenario were it is > > >the USA which suffers such a fall from greatness? > > > > Oh, I've done that already. Go to: > > > > http://www.ahtg.net/TpA/tpaguide.html > > > > for my scenario, named "Tripartite Alliance Earth." For more US-specific > > information, go to > > Wow, I loved that history! My thanks. It isn't complete yet -- I still have some of the main history pages to upload, along with proofread and various minor pages. It is very much a work in progress. Anything in particular? As my Disclaimer notes http://www.ahtg.net/TpA/note.html I tried to invert things, to make South America rich and prosperous and to make North America a backwater. > I even made a civ2 scenario based on it (only 85% > complete, never uploaded). Really? Might I ask what specific scenario you constructed -- I'd be very interested to know. > -- > -- > Fabian > The human didn't notice. Did other cats have this problem with their pets? -- Randy McDonald Charlottetown PE Canada Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 18 Apr 2001 09:04:48 GMT From: jsbassior@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Daniel Patrick Duffy said: >Want to read a scary and depressing article? Try "Russia is Finished" in >this month's Atlantic Monthly. Russia's implosion continues and there >isn't much Putin can do to prevent the Motherland from becoming an >irrelevant third world nation. as someone was quoted in the article >"Think Zaire with permafrost" (and left over nukes). The prospect's "depressing" to be sure -- I don't think we need to be "scared" _provided_ that we deploy NMD and improve our NEST system. -- Sincerely Yours, Jordan -- "To urge the preparation of defence is not to assert the imminence of war. On the contrary, if war were imminent, preparations for defense would be too late." (Churchill, 1934) -- Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 18 Apr 2001 20:49:09 GMT From: che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >The prospect's "depressing" to be sure -- I don't think we need to be >"scared" >_provided_ that we deploy NMD and improve our NEST system. I disagree. The conditions in Russia today are eerily similar to the conditions in Weimar Germany. In my view, a fascist/nationalist dictatorship in Russia is a distinct possibility, and one of the more terrifying prospects for the future. Mister Wiggins. "Well Govan, If we are to die, let us die like men."- Last words of Pat Cleburne. 1864 "Hey y'all, watch this!"- Redneck's famous last words Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 19 Apr 2001 05:26:49 GMT From: jsbassior@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Mister Wiggins said: >I disagree. The conditions in Russia today are eerily similar to the conditions >in Weimar Germany. In my view, a fascist/nationalist dictatorship in Russia is >a distinct possibility, and one of the more terrifying prospects for the future. That's a very good point. I was thinking more from the viewpoint of Russia disintegrating, but if Russia reunited under an aggressive dictatorship, that _would_ be scary. -- Sincerely Yours, Jordan -- "To urge the preparation of defence is not to assert the imminence of war. On the contrary, if war were imminent, preparations for defense would be too late." (Churchill, 1934) -- Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 19 Apr 2001 21:07:28 GMT From: che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >That's a very good point. > >I was thinking more from the viewpoint of Russia disintegrating, but if >Russia >reunited under an aggressive dictatorship, that _would_ be scary. Indeed. While Communist nations don't have a history of starting major wars, aggressive, fascist-type dictatorships...well, they do. Mister Wiggins. "Well Govan, If we are to die, let us die like men."- Last words of Pat Cleburne. 1864 "Hey y'all, watch this!"- Redneck's famous last words Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:09:13 -0700 From: rosignol Organization: even less than before Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <20010419170728.01470.00000196@ng-ba1.aol.com>, che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) wrote: > >That's a very good point. > > > >I was thinking more from the viewpoint of Russia disintegrating, but if > >Russia > >reunited under an aggressive dictatorship, that _would_ be scary. > > Indeed. While Communist nations don't have a history of starting major wars, > aggressive, fascist-type dictatorships...well, they do. Dunno what you would call the various attempts to export the revolution, then... Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:43:17 -0500 From: Joseph Hart Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 rosignol wrote: > In article <20010419170728.01470.00000196@ng-ba1.aol.com>, > che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) wrote: > > > >That's a very good point. > > > > > >I was thinking more from the viewpoint of Russia disintegrating, but if > > >Russia > > >reunited under an aggressive dictatorship, that _would_ be scary. > > > > Indeed. While Communist nations don't have a history of starting major wars, > > aggressive, fascist-type dictatorships...well, they do. > > Dunno what you would call the various attempts to export the revolution, > then... The Communists were bastards, but they were rational bastards. The Fascists....well, let's just say that the thought of a fascist-type dictator with nukes scares the hell out of me. -Joe Hart "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:24:42 -0400 From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 Joseph Hart wrote: > > The Communists were bastards, but they were rational bastards. The > Fascists....well, let's just say that the thought of a fascist-type dictator with > nukes scares the hell out of me. Which Communists. Are you telling me that the Stalinists were saner than the Hitlerites? I fear you are mistaken. Both the Commies and the Fascists are collectivists. Someone different religious ideology, but neither gives a rats patootie about an individual's rights. For both, the individual is subordinate to the whole. Bob Kolker Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:56:50 +1200 From: Gareth Wilson Organization: University of Canterbury Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > Which Communists. Are you telling me that the Stalinists were > saner than the Hitlerites? I fear you are mistaken. Both the > Commies and the Fascists are collectivists. Someone different > religious ideology, but neither gives a rats patootie about an > individual's rights. For both, the individual is subordinate to > the whole. > But the Communists are better at it. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gareth Wilson Christchurch New Zealand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 21 Apr 2001 13:00:15 GMT From: jsbassior@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 On this topic, it may simply be that we encountered more rational Communist than Fascist regimes in OTL. What if a group like the Khmer Rouge had become dominant in the Soviet Union? -- Sincerely Yours, Jordan -- "To urge the preparation of defence is not to assert the imminence of war. On the contrary, if war were imminent, preparations for defense would be too late." (Churchill, 1934) -- Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:07:37 +1200 From: Gareth Wilson Organization: University of Canterbury Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 "Jordan S. Bassior" wrote: > On this topic, it may simply be that we encountered more rational Communist > than Fascist regimes in OTL. What if a group like the Khmer Rouge had become > dominant in the Soviet Union? On the spectrum where the Soviets are 5 and the Nazis are 9, the Khmer Rouge is 11. They'd burn themselves out in a few years. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gareth Wilson Christchurch New Zealand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 23 Apr 2001 09:50:53 GMT From: cassiusmaxim@aol.com (Emperor) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >On the spectrum where the Soviets are 5 and the Nazis are 9, the Khmer Rouge >is >11. They'd burn themselves out in a few years. Where do the Romans, Assyrians, and Mongols land on this spectrum? How about 16th century Spain? Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:01:30 +0200 From: "Antonio González" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 "Emperor" wrote in message news:20010423055053.13299.00000650@ng-fp1.aol.com... > > How about 16th century Spain? In the 16th century we were the Good Guys. The problem was that the rest of the world (including the Pope) didn't agree with us. :-) A bit more seriously, although he has been described as a monster, Phillip II wasn't evil. Fanatic yes, but not perverse. Antonio Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 23 Apr 2001 10:55:27 GMT From: cassiusmaxim@aol.com (Emperor) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >A bit more seriously, although he has been described >as a monster, Phillip II wasn't evil. Fanatic yes, but not >perverse. > > Antonio He tried to have three million Dutch executed for heresy. His dad, on the other hand, had his admirable qualities, like working with Bartolemeo de la Casas to actually shut down the "encomedia"(sic) system before the powers of the planters proved to be too great an obstacle. Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:48:31 +0200 From: "Antonio González" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 "Emperor" wrote in message news:20010423065527.13299.00000659@ng-fp1.aol.com... > >A bit more seriously, although he has been described > >as a monster, Phillip II wasn't evil. Fanatic yes, but not > >perverse. > > > > Antonio > > He tried to have three million Dutch executed for heresy. Wow! Three millions! Can you provide a cite? I am absolutely no fan of Phillip II, but what is fair is fair. He tried to do the best (from his POV) for his subjects. For instance, he ordered that in case of a demand between an individual and the crown, in case of doubts, the sentence should be always against the king. He was also a fervient catholic and then he could not tolerate the heresy in his kingdoms. He could, however, tolerate it in other kingdoms. He did not fight the protestant german princes. (He did fight Elisabeth but she was helping the dutch). During his short period as king consort of England, he defended some protestants that the english catholics wanted to burn. The spanish troops (especially those comanded by the Duke of Alva) were brutal? Sure. But they were trying the rebels to surrender, not to exterminate all the Dutch. The original plan was that Alva should make a decisive campaign and then Phillip II should go to the Low Countries and give an amnesty (ObWI: What if he did that?). The councillors in Madrid advised him to stay in Spain. Other periods of Spanish domination in the Low Countries (with Margarita de Parma, Alexander Farnese or, after Phillip death, with the Archdukes) showed a greater tolerance. He respected carefully the Portugese laws after the annexion, and, except for the case of Antonio Perez, also the Aragonese laws. > > His dad, on the other hand, had his admirable qualities, like working with > Bartolemeo de la Casas Bartolomé de las Casa > to actually shut down the "encomedia"(sic) encomienda > system before > the powers of the planters proved to be too great an obstacle. His dad (that had some good qualities) also crushed the Comuneros, that asked for a greater freedom and representation of Castilian cities and people in the government. He also advised strongly his son, not to tolerate *any* heresy in his kingdoms, especially in the Low Countries ("better to reign over a wilderness than heretics" was originally a Charles' sentence) Antonio Subject: Re: AH Challenge: "America is Finished" Date: 19 Apr 2001 23:52:33 GMT From: che49966680@aol.com (Mister Wiggins) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Dunno what you would call the various attempts to export the revolution, >then... > > Those weren't major, they were only regional. Mister Wiggins. "Well Govan, If we are to die, let us die like men."- Last words of Pat Cleburne. 1864 "Hey y'all, watch this!"- Redneck's famous last words