Subject: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:18:55 -0500 From: Andrew Reeves Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if PoD: After Timothy McVeigh's unit returns home from the Gulf War, McVeigh takes a few weeks leave to relax, unwind, and eat. Shortly thereafter, he decides that he wants to go into the Special Forces. IOTL, he failed the try-out, probably because he was most assuredly not in his peak shape. In this WI, McVeigh realizes that he will likely wash-out if he tries out in his present condition. So during the next few months, when he's not working, he's either running or inside the gym. By the time he does go to the indoc, he has become stronger and fitter than IOTL. Results: McVeigh soon gets a ticket to Ranger School, and from there goes on to get his jump wings. McVeigh eventually forms a tight bond with the members of his new unit, feeling a sense of belonging and accomplishment. He stays fairly apolitical, and while angered by the fact that the government will eventually commit the Waco and Ruby Ridge debacles, he does little more than write his Congressman, if that. McVeigh spends another 16 years in the Army, and retires around 2010. 1995 comes and goes in Oklahoma City. Several hundred lives are never shattered one fateful morning. Knock on effects: --The little Hitlerite f**ks who call themselves "patriots" and "militias" stay off of the public's radar screen. What few acts of terrorism they do plan are thwarted since they are, like CPUSA in days of yore, composed largely of FBI informers. --GOP does marginally better in 1996 elections. The NRA doesn't take the hit it did OTL, and is associated merely with "ignorant redneck" in the minds of the Northeastern Elite, rather than "bloodthirsty terrorist" which happened OTL. --The American Right still loathes and detests Janet Reno, but, with a lack of ham-fisted bunglings further down the line, as memory of two incidents in the early nineties fades, so does the ire. Any other thoughts on this one? Andrew Reeves Subject: Re: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: 25 May 2001 09:26:38 -0700 From: prosa123@yahoo.com (Peter Rosa) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Andrew Reeves wrote in message news:<3B0C0D1F.75BB02CA@mail.utexas.edu>... > PoD: > > After Timothy McVeigh's unit returns home from the Gulf War, McVeigh > takes a few weeks leave to relax, unwind, and eat. Shortly thereafter, > he decides that he wants to go into the Special Forces. IOTL, he failed > the try-out, probably because he was most assuredly not in his peak > shape. In this WI, McVeigh realizes that he will likely wash-out if he > tries out in his present condition. So during the next few months, when > he's not working, he's either running or inside the gym. By the time he > does go to the indoc, he has become stronger and fitter than IOTL. > Results: McVeigh soon gets a ticket to Ranger School, and from there > goes on to get his jump wings. McVeigh eventually forms a tight bond > with the members of his new unit, feeling a sense of belonging and > accomplishment. He stays fairly apolitical, and while angered by the > fact that the government will eventually commit the Waco and Ruby Ridge > debacles, he does little more than write his Congressman, if that. > > McVeigh spends another 16 years in the Army, and retires around 2010. > 1995 comes and goes in Oklahoma City. Several hundred lives are never > shattered one fateful morning. There's another, less pleasant possibility. Quite a few people were very angry because of Waco and to a lesser extent Ruby Ridge. There might have been someone else out there, other than McVeigh and Nichols, who was angry enough to kill innocent people in a terrorist act. Yet in OTL this person, let's call him Angry Man, may have decided not to do anything after Oklahoma City, figuring that the point had been made (McVeigh's quick capture also might have scared off Angry Man). But let's say your AH scenario prevailed and McVeigh became a reasonably contented Army Ranger. What's our pal Angry Man to do? Well, he might try a little terrorism himself - and it's not impossible to imagine that what he does turns out even deadlier than Oklahoma City. -- Peter Rosa prosa123@yahoo.com R32R38@aol.com Subject: Re: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:06:09 GMT From: gbob@netdevil.com (G.Bob) Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 On Wed, 23 May 2001 14:18:55 -0500, Andrew Reeves wrote: >PoD: > >After Timothy McVeigh's unit returns home from the Gulf War, McVeigh >takes a few weeks leave to relax, unwind, and eat. Shortly thereafter, >he decides that he wants to go into the Special Forces. IOTL, he failed >the try-out, probably because he was most assuredly not in his peak >shape. In this WI, McVeigh realizes that he will likely wash-out if he >tries out in his present condition. So during the next few months, when >he's not working, he's either running or inside the gym. By the time he >does go to the indoc, he has become stronger and fitter than IOTL. >Results: McVeigh soon gets a ticket to Ranger School, and from there >goes on to get his jump wings. McVeigh eventually forms a tight bond >with the members of his new unit, feeling a sense of belonging and >accomplishment. He stays fairly apolitical, and while angered by the >fact that the government will eventually commit the Waco and Ruby Ridge >debacles, he does little more than write his Congressman, if that. > >McVeigh spends another 16 years in the Army, and retires around 2010. >1995 comes and goes in Oklahoma City. Several hundred lives are never >shattered one fateful morning. > >Knock on effects: > >--The little Hitlerite f**ks who call themselves "patriots" and >"militias" stay off of the public's radar screen. What few acts of >terrorism they do plan are thwarted since they are, like CPUSA in days >of yore, composed largely of FBI informers. A number of specials on the milita movement had already hit public conciousness. Most knew of the "Michigan Milita" well before McVeigh was acused of being a member. Creepy thing is that ITL the milita movement will become slightly more respectable. I imagine that the more sane members will be courted as a grass roots orginization for the Republicans before the '96 election. I don't see them gaining too much more members, but I do see a level of "mainstreaming" in their core beliefs. The members they do have will be more politically savy and be willing to put serious effort into activisim. One interesting fallout of the milita movement being a grass roots orginization is that it will seriously impact Dole's ability to gain the nomination. Newt in '96? > >--GOP does marginally better in 1996 elections. The NRA doesn't take >the hit it did OTL, and is associated merely with "ignorant redneck" in >the minds of the Northeastern Elite, rather than "bloodthirsty >terrorist" which happened OTL. Probally much better. Keep in mind that the Republicans were derailed by two factors. The government shutdown (remaining non-political here, both sides can share ample blame) and the use of the bombing as a way of portraying those in favor of smaller localized government as "extremists". Assuming that the Presidental nominee in 96 loses to Clinton (too extreme a candidate due to grass roots efforts of Christan Right and Milita movement) the Republicans still have control of the house and senate. Enough to force Clinton to resgin after impeachment? Likley. > >--The American Right still loathes and detests Janet Reno, but, with a >lack of ham-fisted bunglings further down the line, as memory of two >incidents in the early nineties fades, so does the ire. Assuming the FBI doesn't botch things in the 90's may require ASBs. :) I imagine that the republican controlled congress will be able to force a Waco investigation in 95 or 96. Due to efforts of the milita movement, there might be enough momentum to fudge the results, or at least force Reno to step down. Not sure who Clinton would have appointed in that case. Keep in mind that the vast majority of Americans felt pretty uneasy over Waco and Ruby Ridge. Dissent on this issue quieted down after the bombing (who would want to be painted with the same brush as a mass murderer like McVeigh?) but public hearings without the bombing in 95 or 96 would have brought these issues to a head. I don't see how Reno could survive politically, and I don't see Clinton expending too much political capital to save her. G. Bob G. Bob Community Manager JumpGate http://netdevil.com Subject: Re: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: 24 May 2001 21:17:47 GMT From: coyu@aol.com (Coyu) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 G. Bob wrote: >A number of specials on the milita movement had already hit public >conciousness. Most knew of the "Michigan Milita" well before McVeigh >was acused of being a member. Some places, the militias have been around since the 70s. The Posse Comitatus, for instance, before it moved to Arkansas and got busted for credit card fraud, had a base in northern Wisconsin, only a few miles from where I grew up. They had billboards up on the local highways and everything: "WHITE MEN JOIN US!" Which kind of excludes me. BATF target practice is not the worst fate I can imagine for some of these meshuggeners. Subject: Re: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 20:26:25 +1200 From: Gareth Wilson Organization: University of Canterbury Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Coyu wrote: > > Some places, the militias have been around since the 70s. > The Posse Comitatus, for instance, before it moved to Arkansas and > got busted for credit card fraud, had a base in northern Wisconsin, > only a few miles from where I grew up. They had billboards up on > the local highways and everything: "WHITE MEN JOIN US!" Was that an imperative, or just a declarative? -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gareth Wilson Christchurch New Zealand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Subject: Re: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: 25 May 2001 15:44:25 GMT From: coyu@aol.com (Coyu) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Gareth Wilson wrote: >> Some places, the militias have been around since the 70s. >> The Posse Comitatus, for instance, before it moved to Arkansas and >> got busted for credit card fraud, had a base in northern Wisconsin, >> only a few miles from where I grew up. They had billboards up on >> the local highways and everything: "WHITE MEN JOIN US!" > >Was that an imperative, or just a declarative? Actually, it was a counterfactual. Just because northern Wisconsin headquarters the John Birch society, and is home to the odd pilot who used to run guns to the Contras, or the odd Navy Seal who helped depopulate Kharg Island, does not mean it particularly likes having a bunch of cross-burning lackwit copperheads in its back yard. In Wisconsin, *we* are the state. Plus, they were Cowboys fans. Subject: Re: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 10:54:50 -0700 From: rosignol Organization: very little Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <20010525114425.20485.00001279@ng-fg1.aol.com>, coyu@aol.com (Coyu) wrote: [zap] > does not mean it particularly likes > having a bunch of cross-burning lackwit copperheads in its back > yard. In Wisconsin, *we* are the state. What is a copperhead? > Plus, they were Cowboys fans. No hope of redemption, eh? ;) Subject: Re: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: 28 May 2001 01:31:13 GMT From: coyu@aol.com (Coyu) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Rosignol wrote: >> does not mean it particularly likes >> having a bunch of cross-burning lackwit copperheads in its back >> yard. In Wisconsin, *we* are the state. > >What is a copperhead? An obnoxious snake. Also, a Northern Confederate sympathizer. >> Plus, they were Cowboys fans. > >No hope of redemption, eh? ;) I am not sure that a partiality for any football team renders one irretrievably damned. But, if there were, it would be for Dallas. Subject: Re: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:35:10 +0100 From: Alison Brooks Organization: Dis Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <20010524171747.12240.00001312@ng-ba1.aol.com>, Coyu writes >They had billboards up on >the local highways and everything: "WHITE MEN JOIN US!" I didn't know they were coming apart. -- Alison Brooks http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/ Subject: Re: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:11:05 +0100 From: Phil Edwards Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 On Wed, 23 May 2001 14:18:55 -0500, Andrew Reeves wrote: >McVeigh spends another 16 years in the Army, and retires around 2010. >1995 comes and goes in Oklahoma City. Several hundred lives are never >shattered one fateful morning. > >Knock on effects: > >--The little Hitlerite f**ks who call themselves "patriots" and >"militias" stay off of the public's radar screen. What few acts of >terrorism they do plan are thwarted since they are, like CPUSA in days >of yore, composed largely of FBI informers. Don't overrate the competence of the FBI. IOTL Randy Weaver was approached to become an informer (and approached, and approached...) Phil -- Phil Edwards research@amroth.zetnet.co.uk "Big Macs and their french fry allies continue to contribute to massive death tolls even to this day." - Bucky Rea Subject: Re: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: 24 May 2001 09:32:31 GMT From: mwstone@aol.com (mike stone) Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >From: Phil Edwards research@amroth.zetnet.co.uk >Don't overrate the competence of the FBI. IOTL Randy Weaver was >approached to become an informer (and approached, and approached...) > He wasn't too smart either. He ought to have agreed - for a price - and thn fed them duff information -- Mike Stone - Peterborough England Last words of King Edward II. "I always said that Roger Mortimer was a pain in the - - - AAARGHH!!!" Subject: Re: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:37:46 GMT From: sarcastic_jew@yahoo.com (Ivan Hodes) Organization: AT&T Worldnet Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 On 24 May 2001 09:32:31 GMT, mwstone@aol.com (mike stone) wrote: >>From: Phil Edwards research@amroth.zetnet.co.uk > >>Don't overrate the competence of the FBI. IOTL Randy Weaver was >>approached to become an informer (and approached, and approached...) >> > >He wasn't too smart either. He ought to have agreed - for a price - and thn >fed them duff information Which is what, IIIRC, young Josfe Stalin did with the Okhrana, in his 'Koba" days. Ivan Hodes Oh, he who'd make his fellow creatures wise Should always gild the philosophic pill W.S. Gilbert, "The Yeomen of the Guard" Subject: Re: A happy McVeigh What-If Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:45:28 -0500 From: "Mark R. Whittington" Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Well, Bill Clinton lacks another issue to beat his opponents over the head with. McVeigh not commiting the Oklahoma City atrocity would also mean that criticism of Janet Reno's various follys would be more respectable. The NRA, by the way, has more members than ever and was a decisive force in the last election. It would be that even in this scenario.