Subject: 973-1912, Lod Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 08:30:02 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if As anyone that knows the Dewey Decimal System would know, 973 means that this WI is about the General History of the United States. By adding 1912 to the end, I am telling all readers that the proposed POD would take place in the year 1912. Lod are the first three letters of the last name of the main person involved in this WI, Henry Cabot Lodge. Seeing how easy this system is, I hope all SHWIers begin to use it. Now then. Suppose that in the year 1912 we did away with both Taft and TR. If we had Taft die, and TR perhaps back off because he feels that he could find a better replacement for Taft than trying to go up against the Republican establishment. Would the Presidency fall to James Sherman, or perhaps could we arrange for Henry Cabot Lodge to get the nod? Maybe the plausible result is that James Sherman gets the Presidential nomination, and Lodge for VP. And then, before the election, Sherman dies from Bright's disease as OTL. Lodge was the VP candidate, and quickly the Republicans rally around him. He goes on to easily defeat Wilson in the election, and becomes President of the United States. Now what? Logan Ferree Subject: Re: 973-1912, Lod Date: 31 May 2001 13:11:56 -0700 From: joergradd@yahoo.de (Jörg Raddatz) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Logan Ferree wrote in message news:<3B16394A.7445441D@roanoke.infi.net>... > As anyone that knows the Dewey Decimal System would know, 973 means > that this WI is about the General History of the United States. [...]By > adding 1912 to the end, I am telling all readers that the proposed POD > would take place in the year 1912. Lod are the first three letters of > the last name of the main person involved in this WI, Henry Cabot > Lodge. Seeing how easy this system is, I hope all SHWIers begin to use > it. I always like to read your ideas, but please consider that SHWI is not a American-only NG. At least in Germany the Dewey Decimal System is practically unknown, I can assure you, and I guess the same is true in most other European countries. So at least fpr some in thois NG it would matters much more complicated. So I really cannot support this suggestion, it would make the subject lines much more difficult to understand. Of course, anybody can call his posts as he wishes, and perhaps it is useful to limit a thread with a very special POD or historical background to those who can appreciate it and know the historical context already. Joerg Subject: Re: 973-1912, Lod Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:09:15 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Jörg Raddatz wrote: > I always like to read your ideas, but please consider that SHWI is not > a American-only NG. At least in Germany the Dewey Decimal System is practically > unknown, I can assure you, and I guess the same is true in most other European > countries. So at least fpr some in thois NG it would matters much more > complicated. > So I really cannot support this suggestion, it would make the subject lines > much more difficult to understand. > Of course, anybody can call his posts as he wishes, and perhaps it is useful > to limit a thread with a very special POD or historical background to those > who can appreciate it and know the historical context already. This started in another post where I felt that the majority of the replies was criticizing my title for the post, instead of the actual WI. So this will end all criticism of people's titles. Mostly sarcasm. Logan Ferree Subject: Re: 973-1912, Lod Date: 31 May 2001 20:00:50 GMT From: dtenner@ameritech.net (David Tenner) Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Logan Ferree wrote in <3B16394A.7445441D@roanoke.infi.net>: >Lodge was the VP >candidate, and quickly the Republicans rally around him. He goes on to >easily defeat Wilson in the election, and becomes President of the >United States. Now what? I very much doubt that Lodge would defeat Wilson at all, let alone "easily". The myth that the GOP lost in 1912 only because the party was split between TR and Taft dies hard, but as I have repeatedly pointed out, the Democrats won big in 1910, before the Republican-Progressive split, and there is every reason to believe that the combined TR-Taft total in OTL was much higher than any one Republican candidate could get--let alone one as conservative as Lodge running in a very "progressive" year. (1912 was after all a year when Eugene Debs could get one-fourth as many votes as the official candidate of the Republican Party! Of course, if there seemed any chance a conservative Republican might actually win, a considerable number of Debs voters might go for Wilson--as they would in fact do in 1916.) In particular, just try to sell Lodge in the "insurgent" West! -- David Tenner dtenner@ameritech.net Subject: Re: 973-1912, Lod Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:15:41 GMT From: sarcastic_jew@yahoo.com (Ivan Hodes) Organization: AT&T Worldnet Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 On Thu, 31 May 2001 08:30:02 -0400, Logan Ferree wrote: > and TR perhaps back off Think real hard about that phrase. because he feels >that he could find a better replacement for Taft than trying to go up >against the Republican establishment. Going up against establishments was what made TR tick. Ivan Hodes Oh, he who'd make his fellow creatures wise Should always gild the philosophic pill W.S. Gilbert, "The Yeomen of the Guard" Subject: Re: 973-1912, Lod Date: 31 May 2001 17:19:43 GMT From: dfowler955@aol.com (DFowler955) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 It's really just easier to have TR die on a safari; IIRC he was wounded at one point in 1910 on one. Then, have Taft's cholesterol catch up with him so he really doesn't feel capable of running. The guy was perhaps 350 poinds, after all, while in office. True story, a couple friends used to tease this one kid in Jr. High by calling him "taf," which is 'fat" backwards. Well, *I* always misheard them, and assumed they were calling him "Taft." __________ Jesus, who was God come down in the flesh as man, was sinless, yet suffered & died for our sins & rose again so we may go to Heaven. Repenting of our sins & asking Him into our hearts as Savior is all you need to know you'll go to Heaven. Subject: Re: 973-1912, Lod Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:35:39 GMT From: sarcastic_jew@yahoo.com (Ivan Hodes) Organization: AT&T Worldnet Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 On 31 May 2001 17:19:43 GMT, dfowler955@aol.com (DFowler955) wrote: > It's really just easier to have TR die on a safari; IIRC he was wounded at >one point in 1910 on one. Or have him be blown up by a Norwegian terrorist at King Edward's funeral, which he attended. But that would just be silly. > Then, have Taft's cholesterol catch up with him so he really doesn't feel >capable of running. The guy was perhaps 350 poinds, after all, while in >office. Right. But then the Republicans lack a) an incumbent and b) a really dynamic reformer, unless LaFollette throws his hat in the ring. IMO the way to keep Wilson (or Clark, who is somewhat more probable as a candidate, all things considered) out of the White House is not to go about killing Republicans, but to cement a strong alliance between the Old Guard and the Progressives. Ivan Hodes Oh, he who'd make his fellow creatures wise Should always gild the philosophic pill W.S. Gilbert, "The Yeomen of the Guard" Subject: Re: 973-1912, Lod Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:47:31 GMT From: Robert Fruge Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Logan Ferree wrote: > As anyone that knows the Dewey Decimal System would know, 973 means > that this WI is about the General History of the United States. By > adding 1912 to the end, I am telling all readers that the proposed POD > would take place in the year 1912. Lod are the first three letters of > the last name of the main person involved in this WI, Henry Cabot > Lodge. Seeing how easy this system is, I hope all SHWIers begin to use > it. > Now then. Suppose that in the year 1912 we did away with both Taft > and TR. If we had Taft die, and TR perhaps back off because he feels > that he could find a better replacement for Taft than trying to go up > against the Republican establishment. Would the Presidency fall to > James Sherman, or perhaps could we arrange for Henry Cabot Lodge to get > the nod? > Maybe the plausible result is that James Sherman gets the > Presidential nomination, and Lodge for VP. And then, before the > election, Sherman dies from Bright's disease as OTL. Lodge was the VP > candidate, and quickly the Republicans rally around him. He goes on to > easily defeat Wilson in the election, and becomes President of the > United States. Now what? > > Logan Ferree Does Vice President (I assume now President) James Sherman NOT die a month before the election in your AH? Subject: Re: 973-1912, Lod Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:50:34 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Robert Fruge wrote: > Logan Ferree wrote: > > > As anyone that knows the Dewey Decimal System would know, 973 means > > that this WI is about the General History of the United States. By > > adding 1912 to the end, I am telling all readers that the proposed POD > > would take place in the year 1912. Lod are the first three letters of > > the last name of the main person involved in this WI, Henry Cabot > > Lodge. Seeing how easy this system is, I hope all SHWIers begin to use > > it. > > Now then. Suppose that in the year 1912 we did away with both Taft > > and TR. If we had Taft die, and TR perhaps back off because he feels > > that he could find a better replacement for Taft than trying to go up > > against the Republican establishment. Would the Presidency fall to > > James Sherman, or perhaps could we arrange for Henry Cabot Lodge to get > > the nod? > > Maybe the plausible result is that James Sherman gets the > > Presidential nomination, and Lodge for VP. And then, before the > > election, Sherman dies from Bright's disease as OTL. Lodge was the VP > > candidate, and quickly the Republicans rally around him. He goes on to > > easily defeat Wilson in the election, and becomes President of the > > United States. Now what? > > > > Logan Ferree > > Does Vice President (I assume now President) James Sherman NOT die a month > before the election in your AH? Did you not read this post? Logan Ferree Subject: Re: 973-1912, Lod Date: 10 Jun 2001 18:29:40 GMT From: mwstone@aol.com (mike stone) Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >From: Logan Ferree lhferree@roanoke.infi.net >Sherman dies from Bright's disease as OTL. Lodge was the VP >> > candidate, and quickly the Republicans rally around him. He goes on to >> > easily defeat Wilson in the election, and becomes President of the >> > United States. Why does he "easily defeat Wilson"? A lot of the Progressives who voted for Roosevelt OTL are _not_ going to vote for Lodge, who imho would be hard put to win at all, never mind "easily". If only one-sixth of TR's voters preferred Wilson to Lodge, that would elect Wilson, even if _all_ of Taft's OTL votes went to Lodge. >Now what? Well, assuming that Lodge _has_ somehow managed to win, he would be more interventionist than Wilson in regard to WWI, and might well try to enter the war in 1916, in order to run for re-election as a wartime President. Trouble is, he may well face a heavily Democrat Congress, which might not be at all eager to declare war -- Mike Stone - Peterborough England Last words of King Edward II. "I always said that Roger Mortimer was a pain in the - - - AAARGHH!!!" Subject: Re: 973-1912, Lod Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:45:37 -0400 From: Logan Ferree Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 mike stone wrote: > >From: Logan Ferree lhferree@roanoke.infi.net > > >Sherman dies from Bright's disease as OTL. Lodge was the VP > >> > candidate, and quickly the Republicans rally around him. He goes on to > >> > easily defeat Wilson in the election, and becomes President of the > >> > United States. > > Why does he "easily defeat Wilson"? A lot of the Progressives who voted for > Roosevelt OTL are _not_ going to vote for Lodge, who imho would be hard put to > win at all, never mind "easily". If only one-sixth of TR's voters preferred > Wilson to Lodge, that would elect Wilson, even if _all_ of Taft's OTL votes > went to Lodge. Lodge wasn't viewed as Progressive? Odd. I thought he and TR were rather close. > >Now what? > > Well, assuming that Lodge _has_ somehow managed to win, he would be more > interventionist than Wilson in regard to WWI, and might well try to enter the > war in 1916, in order to run for re-election as a wartime President. Trouble > is, he may well face a heavily Democrat Congress, which might not be at all > eager to declare war I see. Logan Ferree Subject: Re: 973-1912, Lod Date: 10 Jun 2001 19:04:52 GMT From: mwstone@aol.com (mike stone) Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >From: Logan Ferree lhferree@roanoke.infi.net >Lodge wasn't viewed as Progressive? Odd. I thought he and TR were rather >close. They were - after the oubreak of WWI. Both were strongly in favour of USS intervention. Since this was TR's big obsession at the time, he was able to overlook Lodge's not very progressive views on domestic policy This is what led TR to recommend Lodge to the Progressive Party Convention in 1916. Needless to say they turned him down flat, and, when TR himself refused their nomination, the PP just went out of business In fact, it is difficult to think of _any_ candidate who could have won both Taft's and TR's votes at the same time. This was what screwed things up in 1916 for Charles Evans Hughes - who had a far more progressive record than Lodge -- Mike Stone - Peterborough England Last words of King Edward II. "I always said that Roger Mortimer was a pain in the - - - AAARGHH!!!" Subject: Re: 973-1912, Lod Date: 10 Jun 2001 16:22:13 -0700 From: syd_webb@hotmail.com (Sydney Webb) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Logan Ferree wrote... > This started in another post where I felt that the majority of the replies was criticizing my title > for the post, instead of the actual WI. So this will end all criticism of people's titles. Mostly > sarcasm. Logan, may I just say how pleased I am that in a post where Taft is killed and TR removed from the picture you titled the thread "973-1912, Lod" rather than, say, "End the Fat Bastards!". This way it is immediately obvious to tender readers that this is a WI and not, perhaps, a call to exterminate a physically distinct minority in our society. - Syd