From - Sat Mar 03 09:56:18 2001 Path: sn-us!sn-xit-04!supernews.com!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn From: Jonathan I. Edelstein Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if Subject: 1979: Abd er-Rahman Zoabi, J.S.C. Date: 1 Mar 2001 13:48:38 -0800 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 50 Message-ID: <97mg3m07mr@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-902.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.65 Xref: sn-us soc.history.what-if:316175 In a different thread a few months back, I mentioned in passing the possibility of Judge Abd-er-Rahman Zoabi being appointed to the Israeli Supreme Court during the late 1970s or early 1980s. However, the thread in question rapidly devolved into a Zionist/ anti-Zionist flamewar, and nobody ever picked up on the Zoabi issue. Judge Zoabi is an Israeli Arab from Nazareth with a long and distinguished career in the legal profession and judiciary. In OTL, he sat on the Nazareth district court for many years with an excellent reputation, and chaired the Israeli commission that investigated the Hebron massacre of 1994. He was nominated a number of times for the Supreme Court, but was passed over repeatedly - a situation which many Israeli Arabs ascribed to anti-Arab discrimination. He was finally appointed to the high court in 1998, at the age of 65, and AFAIK is currently a member. Suppose, instead, that he had been appointed to the Supreme Court at an earlier time. Imagine, for instance, that he had been appointed in 1979 as a gesture of peace and inclusion to Arabs following the conclusion of peace with Egypt. How would his presence on the court during the past two decades have affected Israeli law and society? For reference, the Israeli Supreme Court has 14 members, but cases are heard by panels of anywhere from three to nine judges. Zoabi's presence on a nine-member panel might not make much of a difference - but on a three-member panel, he would be in a position to influence the course of Israeli law, especially if at least one other liberal judge were sitting. Would it be possible for the concern for due process and minority rights which the OTL high court developed during the mid-to-late 1990s to occur during the early 1980s instead? Of course, Zoabi wouldn't have to be in the majority to have a powerful moral influence - his dissenting opinions would no doubt be rallying points for those who saw Israel as a state of all its citizens. This might be especially true given that Zoabi's opinions wouldn't be anti- Zionist rants (assuming that his OTL statements are any guide) but measured criticisms of Israeli society from the viewpoint of the Western legal tradition that Israel shares. In addition, his very presence on the court might be a symbolic measure that could open the door to other previously taboo concepts such as Arab Cabinet ministers. What are the chances that a Zoabi appointment in 1979 would lead to significant transformations during the 1980s? Jonathan I. Edelstein in Forest Hills, NY "Who is wise? He who learns from all." - Ben Zoma, Pirkei Avot 4:1 Subject: Re: 1979: Abd er-Rahman Zoabi, J.S.C. Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:34:31 -0400 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Jonathan I. Edelstein wrote: > > [deletia] > > For reference, the Israeli Supreme Court has 14 members, but cases > are heard by panels of anywhere from three to nine judges. Zoabi's > presence on a nine-member panel might not make much of a difference - > but on a three-member panel, he would be in a position to influence > the course of Israeli law, especially if at least one other liberal > judge were sitting. Would it be possible for the concern for due > process and minority rights which the OTL high court developed during > the mid-to-late 1990s to occur during the early 1980s instead? I suppose that it would be possible that an Arab judge on the Israeli Supreme Court might bring Arab concerns in Israel to the forefront, or at least make them better known. Perhaps the Israeli state might try to integrate Israeli Arabs into the mainstream of Israeli life. The problem, though, is that by the early 1980's Israel will find itself in the middle of a confrontation with Syria and against Palestinians -- a *Sabra and Shatila massacre could potentially have very damaging results in an Israel that was in the middle of the delicate process of trying to integrate its Arab population. More than a few Israeli Arabs would lose relatives, for instance, in an Israeli invasion of Lebanon aimed at expelling Syrian influence from that state, and I don't think that the POD would discourage an Israeli invasion. I'm not sure how things could evolve beyond that point. > [deletia] > > Jonathan I. Edelstein in Forest Hills, NY > > "Who is wise? He who learns from all." > - Ben Zoma, Pirkei Avot 4:1 Subject: Re: 1979: Abd er-Rahman Zoabi, J.S.C. Date: 03 Mar 2001 01:03:40 GMT From: joatsimeon@aol.com (JoatSimeon) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Randy McDonald >Perhaps the Israeli state might try to integrate Israeli Arabs into the mainstream of Israeli life. -- the problem is that that population has shown no signs of wanting to be integrated into Israeli life, as opposed to getting government grants, for which they've worked up a fair degree of enthusiasm. Eg., only a few Israeli Arabs (mostly of Bedouin background) have volunteered for military service, and none of their leaders has called for extending the draft to Arabs. Given the centrality of military service to civic/political life in Israel, this is a significant indicator. By way of contrast, the Druze population has tried, largely successfuly, to integrate. From the beginnings of the Israeli state they insisted on doing compulsory military service on the same basis as Jewish Israelis, and a Druze has become a cabinet minister in the current Likud-led government. The bulk of the Israeli Arabs have consistently shown that, down deep, they don't accept the legitimacy of the Israeli state and that given an opportunity to harm it, they will. In other words, they're treated as Fifth Columnists and potential saboteurs because they _are_ Fifth Columnists and potential saboteurs. This isn't surprising; why wouldn't Palestinian Arabs identify with other Palestinian Arabs? It would be illogical to expect anything else, given that they're human beings like any others. It's no more surprising than the record of... oh, pro-Hungarian sentiment among Magyar minorities in surrounding states like Slovakia and Rumania. -- S.M. Stirling Subject: Re: 1979: Abd er-Rahman Zoabi, J.S.C. Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:23:04 -0400 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 JoatSimeon wrote: > > >Randy McDonald > > >Perhaps the Israeli state might try to integrate Israeli Arabs into the > mainstream of Israeli life. > > [deletia of pointless rant] > > -- S.M. Stirling Are you interested in discussing the WI? Subject: Re: 1979: Abd er-Rahman Zoabi, J.S.C. Date: 03 Mar 2001 05:32:51 GMT From: joatsimeon@aol.com (JoatSimeon) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Randy McDonald >[deletia of pointless rant] -- that wasn't a pointless rant; that was a calm and closely-reasoned exposition of why the WI is pointless. -- S.M. Stirling Subject: Re: 1979: Abd er-Rahman Zoabi, J.S.C. Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 09:55:10 -0400 From: Randy McDonald Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 JoatSimeon wrote: > > >Randy McDonald > > >[deletia of pointless rant] > > -- that wasn't a pointless rant; that was a calm and closely-reasoned > exposition of why the WI is pointless. Defining Israeli Arabs as a population that can never be satisfied, and then arguing that it doesn't matter if the Israeli state doesn't try to incorporate them, isn't a particularly sensible thing to do. The late 1970's was probably the earliest time for the Israeli state to begin the process of incorporating Israeli Arabs into the body politic, and the appointment of Abd er-Rahman Zoabi to the Israeli Supreme Court just might begin that process early, with major ramifications for Israeli society. > -- S.M. Stirling