Subject: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: 21 Sep 2001 06:28:37 GMT From: congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if "Brazilian" Australia (And with that audacious title) POD: 1520 A Portuguese merchant/exploration ship plying the East Indies trade, let's call it the Sao Manuel, finds Australia. This isn't actually different from OTL, there _is_ evidence of a Portuguese presence in Australia in the 16th century, if an abortive one. They get there by the route around Tasmania (going too far south in the Indian Ocean and being blown too far east), and rather than turn around and tempt fate against those winds again, they begin sailing up the eastern coast of Australia, taking note of all the nice fertile land and the particularly primitive natives. Finally, though, they stop for provisions between Brisbane and Queensland. All parties involved behave themselves, and the Portuguese roam about the countryside, hunting and exploring, while some necessary repairs are performed on the ship itself. An anonymous crewman is chasing a kangaroo when he stumbles across something rather important to Western Europeans of the 1520s. Gold! Sweet, sweet gold! (The area south of Brisbane and north of Queensland is still known as the "Gold Coast" today.) After a few weeks of repairs, the Sao Manuel manages to begin the long journey home, with just enough gold ore to spark a return trip. They get back around 1522 or so. King Joao III is newly on his throne and ambitious, he sends a big follow-up mission to Portugal Australius and finds the natives in and around the gold all disappointingly dead. Well, they're used to that sort of thing, and even as Portuguese miners set to work on digging out gold, the Portuguese government is already looking for an alternate source of labor. It doesn't take long for them to find it, and soon thousands of black Africans are on the long sea voyage to the new continent. Many die on the trip, many more die in the mines, but by 1540, there are tens of thousands of slaves and Portuguese working in and around the mines. By 1580, given natural increase among slaves fortunate enough not to work in the mines and a limited number of actual Portuguese settlers. (The land is good, exploitable people are around if a bit pricey, and it's a good way to get away from it all), there are about 100,000 slaves and 10,000 Portuguese living roughly between *New Lisbon (Brisbane) and *Joaoton (Sydney). Between 1580 and 1640, while Portugal is united with Spain, Portugal Australius languishes, mostly kept around for its gold reserves. Interestingly, the first significant Maroon communities spring up in this era, as there are far fewer soldiers available to hunt them down. The largest is near the site of OTL's Perth. In 1660, the Dutch take over "Australius.". The Dutch aren't very friendly when outnumbered by black Africans, so they certainly aren't about to import anymore. The Australian Portuguese mostly just stay where they are, they've been away from home too long to go back. They do drive a lot into the interior, though, especially the Maroon communities in the west, forcing most to take up a grazing lifestyle in the western part of the continent, and *New Rotterdam (Perth) becomes their largest independently founded colony, useful for agriculture, a ship base, and a base of operations in the event of Indonesian rebellion. When they _do_ need to import workers, they use Melanesians, who mostly settle in the west as well. By 1800 or so, when the British arrive, Australia looks like this: "New Portugal", a black-majority, mostly Lusophone group of cities under Dutch control running along Australia's eastern seaboard. They're mostly agricultural by now, having shifted there after most of the accessible gold was exhausted. Total population is in the low millions, mostly dirt poor peasants with a small Portuguese middle class and even smaller Dutch or Dutch-assimilated landowners. Slavery is present and brutal. "New Rotterdam" and her associated cities; maybe 30,000 Dutch and 90,000 Indonesians, populating the Massachusetts-sized area around the Swan River that's so good for agriculture and such, with the occasional ranch out in the boondocks. Racial relations are fine between the mostly-free Asians and Dutch, but very poor against the "natives", an odd mix of escaped slave and surviving Aborigine. Thoughts? President Chester A. Arthur, the anti-Rutherford Hayes Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: 21 Sep 2001 02:56:58 -0700 From: Lovell-Smith@Xtra.co.nz (Tim) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) wrote in message news:<20010921022837.07128.00000354@mb-ch.aol.com>... > "Brazilian" Australia > > (And with that audacious title) > > POD: 1520 > > A Portuguese merchant/exploration ship plying the East Indies trade, let's call > it the Sao Manuel, finds Australia. This isn't actually different from OTL, > there _is_ evidence of a Portuguese presence in Australia in the 16th century, > if an abortive one. > > They get there by the route around Tasmania (going too far south in the Indian > Ocean and being blown too far east), and rather than turn around and tempt fate > against those winds again, they begin sailing up the eastern coast of > Australia, taking note of all the nice fertile land and the particularly > primitive natives. > > Finally, though, they stop for provisions between Brisbane and Queensland. All > parties involved behave themselves, and the Portuguese roam about the > countryside, hunting and exploring, while some necessary repairs are performed > on the ship itself. An anonymous crewman is chasing a kangaroo when he stumbles > across something rather important to Western Europeans of the 1520s. > > Gold! Sweet, sweet gold! (The area south of Brisbane and north of Queensland > King Joao III is newly on his throne and ambitious, he sends a big follow-up Justaminute... Gold in Qld? Vic and NSW finds were first, but was there any goldrush in Qld? Der Kaiser will probably be more informative about that... > mission to Portugal Australius and finds the natives in and around the gold > all disappointingly dead. Well, they're used to that sort of thing, and even as > Portuguese miners set to work on digging out gold, the Portuguese government is > already looking for an alternate source of labor. Portuguese were more interested in trade, especially in silver from China at that time. Gold, if it was easily obtained, but in out-back Qld? Nope. lot easier to keep up the China trade (I mean the Incas and Mexicans had thoughtfully established all the good goldbearing places for the Spanish , before they came. Here you are starting from scratch - and in a not very comfortable climate, despite what it is like today.) > It doesn't take long for them to find it, and soon thousands of black Africans > are on the long sea voyage to the new continent. Many die on the trip, many > more die in the mines, but by 1540, there are tens of thousands of slaves and > Portuguese working in and around the mines. > Between 1580 and 1640, while Portugal is united with Spain, Portugal Australius > languishes, mostly kept around for its gold reserves. Interestingly, the first > significant Maroon communities spring up in this era, as there are far fewer > soldiers available to hunt them down. The largest is near the site of OTL's > Perth. Australia's quite big - the Maroons would have had quite a long a trek over unfriendly deserts... > In 1660, the Dutch take over "Australius.". The Dutch aren't very friendly when > outnumbered by black Africans, so they certainly aren't about to import > anymore. The Australian Portuguese mostly just stay where they are, they've > been away from home too long to go back. > > independently founded colony, useful for agriculture, a ship base, and a base > of operations in the event of Indonesian rebellion. The Dutch were quite cunning in playing one Indonesian island or Sultanate off against the other. Swan River a bit too remote, and separated by a long treacherous coast line from the Indies When they _do_ need to > import workers, they use Melanesians, who mostly settle in the west as well. From where? The Melanesian islands were still mainly unknown or (like the Solomons, found and lost), were warlike - Their use as indentured labour on the Queensland canefields came mainly after the 1850s, when a reasonable trade had sprung up and both Kanaka and Europeans were familiar with each other... > By 1800 or so, when the British arrive, Australia looks like this: > > "New Portugal", a black-majority, mostly Lusophone group of cities under Dutch > control running along Australia's eastern seaboard. They're mostly agricultural > by now, having shifted there after most of the accessible gold was exhausted. > Total population is in the low millions, mostly dirt poor peasants with a small > Portuguese middle class and even smaller Dutch or Dutch-assimilated landowners. > Slavery is present and brutal. Doubtful if the population would be even in the low millions - even now, after 200 years of immigration, compulsory and otherwise, the population has only reached 18 million. > "New Rotterdam" and her associated cities; maybe 30,000 Dutch and 90,000 > Indonesians, populating the Massachusetts-sized area around the Swan River > that's so good for agriculture and such, with the occasional ranch out in the > boondocks. Racial relations are fine between the mostly-free Asians and Dutch, > but very poor against the "natives", an odd mix of escaped slave and surviving > Aborigine. > > Thoughts? > Interesting! Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: 21 Sep 2001 12:50:02 -0700 From: username_not_found@yahoo.com.au (Kaiser Wilhelm II) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 Lovell-Smith@Xtra.co.nz (Tim) wrote in message news:... > congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) wrote in message news:<20010921022837.07128.00000354@mb-ch.aol.com>... > > "Brazilian" Australia > > > > (And with that audacious title) > > > > POD: 1520 [snip] > > Gold! Sweet, sweet gold! (The area south of Brisbane and north of Queensland > King Joao III is newly on his throne and ambitious, he sends a big follow-up > > Justaminute... > Gold in Qld? Vic and NSW finds were first, but was there any goldrush > in Qld? > > Der Kaiser will probably be more informative about that... Well, if you insist... :) As I said in a previous post, there were gold rushes in Queensland, but not near the Gold Coast. There were also gold rushes in the Northern Territory. > > mission to Portugal Australius and finds the natives in and around the gold > > all disappointingly dead. Well, they're used to that sort of thing, and even as > > Portuguese miners set to work on digging out gold, the Portuguese government is > > already looking for an alternate source of labor. > > Portuguese were more interested in trade, especially in silver from > China at that time. > Gold, if it was easily obtained, but in out-back Qld? Nope. lot easier > to keep up the China trade > (I mean the Incas and Mexicans had thoughtfully established all the > good goldbearing places for the Spanish , before they came. Here you > are starting from scratch - and in a not very comfortable climate, > despite what it is like today.) It's possible to have the Portuguese discover the gold and work it, but it would be more likely for them to be established for some other reason _first_. > > It doesn't take long for them to find it, and soon thousands of black Africans > > are on the long sea voyage to the new continent. Many die on the trip, many > > more die in the mines, but by 1540, there are tens of thousands of slaves and > > Portuguese working in and around the mines. > > Between 1580 and 1640, while Portugal is united with Spain, Portugal Australius > > languishes, mostly kept around for its gold reserves. Interestingly, the first > > significant Maroon communities spring up in this era, as there are far fewer > > soldiers available to hunt them down. The largest is near the site of OTL's > > Perth. > > Australia's quite big - the Maroons would have had quite a long a > trek over unfriendly deserts... Yes, fertile parts of Australia amount to basically a small strip around the north, east and south coasts, plus another small chunk in the southwest end of WA. The rest is just one big desert. [snip] > When they _do_ need to > > import workers, they use Melanesians, who mostly settle in the west as well. > > From where? The Melanesian islands were still mainly unknown or (like > the Solomons, found and lost), were warlike - Their use as indentured > labour on the Queensland canefields came mainly after the 1850s, when > a reasonable trade had sprung up and both Kanaka and Europeans were > familiar with each other... > > > By 1800 or so, when the British arrive, Australia looks like this: > > > > "New Portugal", a black-majority, mostly Lusophone group of cities under Dutch > > control running along Australia's eastern seaboard. They're mostly agricultural > > by now, having shifted there after most of the accessible gold was exhausted. > > Total population is in the low millions, mostly dirt poor peasants with a small > > Portuguese middle class and even smaller Dutch or Dutch-assimilated landowners. > > Slavery is present and brutal. > > Doubtful if the population would be even in the low millions - even > now, after 200 years of immigration, compulsory and otherwise, the > population has only reached 18 million. With an early enough settlement, it's possible. Australia's population nearly tripled during the gold rush days, and if you have a gold rush about 200 years before that, then natural increase would probably get into the low millions even without too much immigration. > > "New Rotterdam" and her associated cities; maybe 30,000 Dutch and 90,000 > > Indonesians, populating the Massachusetts-sized area around the Swan River > > that's so good for agriculture and such, with the occasional ranch out in the > > boondocks. Racial relations are fine between the mostly-free Asians and Dutch, > > but very poor against the "natives", an odd mix of escaped slave and surviving > > Aborigine. > > > > Thoughts? > > > Interesting! Very. Kaiser Wilhelm III Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:35:20 +1000 From: John P Darcy Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 "President Chester A. Arthur" wrote: > Finally, though, they stop for provisions between Brisbane and Queensland. > > Gold! Sweet, sweet gold! (The area south of Brisbane and north of Queensland is > still known as the "Gold Coast" today.) Brisbane is the capital city of the state of Queensland, and lies on the coast well in the south of the second-largest Australian state. The distance from Brisbane to Cape York, the north-easterly extreme of the continent and of the state, is some 2000 kilometres. "South of Brisbane" is the Gold Coast region and then, maybe two hours' comfortable drive from the Brisbane River, the state border with New South Wales. "North of Queensland" is the Torres Strait and Papua New Guinea. The "Gold Coast" is so named for the colour and beauty of its ocean beaches. The Australian gold rushes were in Victoria (Ballarat, Bendigo), New South Wales (Bathurst) and, later, Western Australia (Kalgoorlie). -- Cheers John Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 23:29:30 +1000 From: Sydney Webb Organization: Webb Family Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 John P Darcy wrote: > > "President Chester A. Arthur" wrote: > > > Finally, though, they stop for provisions between Brisbane and Queensland. > > > > Gold! Sweet, sweet gold! (The area south of Brisbane and north of Queensland is > > still known as the "Gold Coast" today.) > "South of Brisbane" is the Gold Coast region and then, maybe two hours' > comfortable drive from the Brisbane River, the state border with New > South Wales. Yes. I think Chet meant to write "The area south of Brisbane and north of New South Wales." I have similar problems with geography. I'm always getting American states like Ohio and Ontario confused. - Syd Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:05:01 -0500 From: John F. Eldredge Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 21 Sep 2001 23:29:30 +1000, Sydney Webb wrote: >John P Darcy wrote: >> >> "President Chester A. Arthur" wrote: >> >> > Finally, though, they stop for provisions between Brisbane and >> > Queensland. >> > >> > Gold! Sweet, sweet gold! (The area south of Brisbane and north >> > of Queensland is still known as the "Gold Coast" today.) > > > >> "South of Brisbane" is the Gold Coast region and then, maybe two >> hours' comfortable drive from the Brisbane River, the state border >> with New South Wales. > >Yes. I think Chet meant to write "The area south of Brisbane and >north of New South Wales." > >I have similar problems with geography. I'm always getting American >states like Ohio and Ontario confused. Just in case this wasn't said tongue-in-cheek, Ohio is an American state, but Ontario is a Canadian province. Different (though adjoining) countries. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBO7ByRDMYPge5L34aEQJHgwCgli8H7jxJyZre+OyZR+kjue6dp4kAoPSp p2ArYmvxsK/loDw0Z7zzuQNQ =EG7E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- John F. Eldredge -- eldredge@earthlink.net, eldredge@poboxes.com PGP key available from http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371 "There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." Woodrow Wilson Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 00:16:11 +1000 From: John P Darcy Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Sydney Webb wrote: > I have similar problems with geography. I'm always getting American > states like Ohio and Ontario confused. You mean to say you don't know the names of the capitals, the state mottos and flowers, and the date of admission to the Union of all 50 states? Better get back to the books - there *will* be a quiz later :) -- Cheers John Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: 25 Sep 2001 06:58:45 -0700 From: doktorf@tiac.net (Seth Deitch) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 John P Darcy wrote in message news:<3BAB4BAB.EA1ADDE@pleiades.8m.com>... > Sydney Webb wrote: > > > I have similar problems with geography. I'm always getting American > > states like Ohio and Ontario confused. > > > > You mean to say you don't know the names of the capitals, the state > mottos and flowers, and the date of admission to the Union of all 50 > states? Better get back to the books - there *will* be a quiz later :) Does anybody here know what year Ontario was admitted as a state? -Seth Deitch Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:17:12 +1000 From: John P Darcy Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 Seth Deitch wrote: > > John P Darcy wrote in message news:<3BAB4BAB.EA1ADDE@pleiades.8m.com>... > > Sydney Webb wrote: > > > > > I have similar problems with geography. I'm always getting American > > > states like Ohio and Ontario confused. > > > > > > > > You mean to say you don't know the names of the capitals, the state > > mottos and flowers, and the date of admission to the Union of all 50 > > states? Better get back to the books - there *will* be a quiz later :) > > Does anybody here know what year Ontario was admitted as a state? The British captured Fort Ontario in 1755 - but that is in modern-day New York. -- Cheers John Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:13:46 -0600 From: "Patrick Banks" Organization: The University of Wyoming Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 "Seth Deitch" wrote > > Does anybody here know what year Ontario was admitted as a state? > It's still administered by the military and is likely to remain so into the far future. Those Ontario "freedome fighters" didn't do their countrymen any favors when they crashed those planes into the Federal Capitol. Patrick Banks Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: 21 Sep 2001 10:26:36 -0400 From: jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 In article <3BAB40BA.B0860D39@hotmail.com>, Sydney Webb wrote: > >I have similar problems with geography. I'm always getting American >states like Ohio and Ontario confused. Hsssssssssssssssssssssssss. Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: 21 Sep 2001 12:37:45 -0700 From: username_not_found@yahoo.com.au (Kaiser Wilhelm II) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 John P Darcy wrote in message news:<3BAB25F8.88A4404D@pleiades.8m.com>... > "President Chester A. Arthur" wrote: > > > Finally, though, they stop for provisions between Brisbane and Queensland. > > > > Gold! Sweet, sweet gold! (The area south of Brisbane and north of Queensland is > > still known as the "Gold Coast" today.) > > Brisbane is the capital city of the state of Queensland, and lies on the > coast well in the south of the second-largest Australian state. The > distance from Brisbane to Cape York, the north-easterly extreme of the > continent and of the state, is some 2000 kilometres. > > "South of Brisbane" is the Gold Coast region and then, maybe two hours' > comfortable drive from the Brisbane River, the state border with New > South Wales. > > "North of Queensland" is the Torres Strait and Papua New Guinea. > > The "Gold Coast" is so named for the colour and beauty of its ocean > beaches. > > The Australian gold rushes were in Victoria (Ballarat, Bendigo), New > South Wales (Bathurst) and, later, Western Australia (Kalgoorlie). There were gold rushes in Queensland as well, but they happened in far north Queensland, not the Gold Coast. For the Portuguese to find them, they would also have to figure out how to navigate the Great Barrier Reef - possible, but it would have to be a very skilled crew. THere's also the problem that the gold in Australia was usually inland, out of reach of wandering sailors. Even then, it wasn't discovered until an Australian who went to the California gold rushes remembered that he had seen similar rock formations back home, so he returned, and found gold. Maybe you could find a different reason for the Portuguese to stay, and have them discover the gold later. Hmm, maybe a more Christian-inclined captain, who wants to convert the natives? Or perhaps move them later, and have a renegade set up a base somewhere on the west coast to use as a pirate base against the Dtuch coming to the East Indies. Kaiser Wilhelm III Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:13:27 -0500 From: "Carlos Th" Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 Kaiser Wilhelm II wrote: > Maybe you could find a different reason for the Portuguese to stay, > and have them discover the gold later. Hmm, maybe a more > Christian-inclined captain, who wants to convert the natives? Or > perhaps move them later, and have a renegade set up a base somewhere > on the west coast to use as a pirate base against the Dtuch coming to > the East Indies. Or perhaps an earlier POD that does not butterfly away events in Europe: Aborigens had discovered gold and use it in some ceremonies. The Portuguese just find the gold aborigens had already mined out. If this has been happening for a few centuries Down Under, there should be enough gold around to be found by the sailors, without butterflying away the Portugese. -- Carlos Th Subject: Re: "Brazilian" Australia (pretty long) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 03:59:34 GMT From: Robert Brockway Organization: The Real Time Travellers Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 Carlos Th wrote: : Kaiser Wilhelm II wrote: : Or perhaps an earlier POD that does not butterfly away events in Europe: : Aborigens had discovered gold and use it in some ceremonies. The The aborigines were predominantly hunter-gathers before the arrival or Europeans. There is some evidence of advanced techniques (fire farming had a big effect on the flora of the continent for example) but I'm not aware of any evidence that aboriginess were technologically capable let alone inclined to mine gold or any other metal. : Portuguese just find the gold aborigens had already mined out. If this : has been happening for a few centuries Down Under, there should be : enough gold around to be found by the sailors, without butterflying away : the Portugese. I think we'd really need a settlement in Aus for gold to be found (given that it is normally inland). A settlement in Victoria would be my best bet. Rob (Resident of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia). -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Email: robert@timetraveller.org ICQ: 104781119 WWW: robert.timetraveller.org